Goku vs Beyonder
The Beyonder is one of Marvel’s stronger beings and especially before the retcon. His powers were just about unstoppable for the heroes. That being said, he never faced someone quite like Goku. Goku’s speed will suffice for him to evade the Beyonder’s attacks and a good Kamehameha would get through his defenses. The Beyonder does well when he’s in control of the battle, but the tide will quickly shift once Goku starts to get serious. The Beyonder just won’t be able to dodge Goku’s unrelenting attacks. Goku wins.
Beyonder will just generate an explosion right where Goku is, just enough to kill him. He’s done that to the Celestials before so boom Goku loses because the explosion is generated right where he is flying/standing.
Goku doesn’t go down so easily. You forget that he’s a Saiyan who was raised on Earth. A simple explosion can’t stop him and he would be on top of Beyonder the instant that the match started. The cosmic being would simply be doomed!
actually, Beyonder can just think he wins and BOOM automatic win for beyonder, so screw anime and goku
Actually, Goku wins with one blast
The instant the fight started, the Beyonder would be sitting at the center of the universe with his hand on his chin, pondering his existence, while Goku would disintegrate faster than he could move, an enemy the Beyonder doesn’t even acknowledge. That is the difference between their power levels. The Beyonder could smite all of Marvel’s universes with a single thought, while Goku can barely destroy one galaxy.
Beyonder got wrecked by Iron Man in a recent Avengers Assemble episode. He’s got nothing on Goku!
What is it with people thinking that goku is this all powerful, undefeatable anime character. The Beyonce is a cosmic being, that could just erase his existance.
It’s because he is
And Beyonder is an omnipotent in the realm of Beyonders, far more impressive. A simple explosion? That explosion defeated an entire group of Celestials and left them knocked out. I believe a Celestial is way more durable than Goku thank you very much and Beyonder wasn’t even trying when he generated that explosion with a thought. Same thing will happen to Goku.
Beyonder can think of his explosions, but they can’t catch Goku. Goku’s faster than than sight after all and he could quickly grab the Beyonder and unleash one of his killer body slams. The explosions would never be able to hit him!
Goku is faster than sight? Lololol. Frieza and Vegeta manage to tag him. Beyonder crushes him.
True, but that was before Goku was at his strongest. Also, Vegeta’s strength is comparable so that’s not saying all that much…
Also don’t Saiyans take 30-40 seconds to power-up while making constipated sounds? Beyonder only needs a microsecond to explode Goku.
That’s a myth. Goku can fire his attacks very quickly when necessary.
Nope. A base ki blast won’t even be noticed by Beyonder. This guy tanked a blast that would have slagged a dozen universes so think again if you think Goku can even hurt him. And yes Saiyans take ages to power-up when they’re screaming “Kaaaaaaaaaa!!!! continued…”
“MeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeHaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaMeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA” it’s not as long as it looks. Trust me, a Kamehameha would definitely deal massive damage to the Beyonder. The Beyonder has dealt with some fierce attacks, but definitely nothing like the compacted burst of energy that Goku dishes out.
Time yourself when you say that word and you’ll see its long enough for Beyonder to dish out deadly damage before the word is even finished. Also Kamehameha hasn’t busted lots of universes like that attack Beyonder shrugged off.
Goku has super speed so that includes his vocal cords. He can just say it as fast as he can and still blast the Beyonder away. Keep in mind that the Beyonder can’t keep up with Goku so he would be crushed. Goku has a large array of attacks at his disposal and that’s why he’s not the kind of guy to go down without a fight. Goku + Martial Arts = Instant victory. Universe busting is not always a necessity.
Nope, he never displayed super speed voice in the anime or manga so there. Also Beyonder’s omnipresence allows him to be wherever he wants to be so Goku’s speed will be useless. It will be like this with the short Tau trooper as Goku and the big Space Marine as Beyonder. Beyonder won’t even feel Goku’s attacks.
It’s just something that he can probably do. Omnipresence is decent, but moving around instantaneously is not fast enough to stop Goku. Goku will still show him up with the pure speed that he has in his possession. The Beyonder’s durability simply isn’t good enough for him to resist Goku’s attacks for very long.
Um, what part of ‘shrugging off an attack that destroyed lots of universes” do you not understand. Goku has yet to prove he can destroy a single universe in his base form let alone a galaxy. It will be like a baby trying to hurt an adult with a plastic mallet.
It hasn’t been proven but….wait, it has been proven!
Broly destroyed a galaxy and Goku is much stronger at this point. Beyonder definitely can’t endure a blast like Goku’s Kamehameha now. The feats speak for themselves!
Do you even science bro? There are at least 100 billion galaxies in one universe and Beyonder shrugged off an attack that would have decimated tonnes of universes. Destroying a galaxy means nothing.
Settle it in Smash man! Science vs Super Smash, I’m going for the latter. Why study when you can play? Officially, I do support the schooling industry though and learning science is valuable. Galaxies do go into universes, but I still had to point out that Goku can clearly galaxy bust.
Won’t be enough to stop Beyonder. Beyonder is simply beyond this dimension, surpassing all beings that dwell in this dimension. This entity laughed off the cosmic pantheon (Living Tribunal, Eternity, Death, Oblivion, Infinity, Celestials, Galactus) since they weren’t able to defeat him. Galactus was even lesser than a bug compared to Beyonder.
That’s true and the Beyonder is certainly more impressive than just about all of those fighters. That being said, Goku has the massive edge in speed and destructive power. A good Kamehameha should be able to vaporize the Beyonder and that will be the end of the fight!
Nope. Beyonder is faster and can simply either reflect it, shrug it off, absorb its power etc. Goku can do nothing to the Beyonder. Beyonder has never been shown to lose.
Dr Doom pwned the Beyonder. He sucked his energy with a satelite or something…I was not impressed. Goku has the massive edge in speed here, remember how fast he was when he fought Cell? They were zipping all over the place! A good punch from Goku can not be stopped!
Didn’t you read it carefully? Beyonder LET him do it since he wanted to see what Doom was capable of doing with his powers.
True, but that’s just the reason that he gives us. It seemed like he was simply tricked to me. Remember, he did try sabotaging Doom at first so I don’t think he actually wanted to lose his powers. He simply underestimated Doom.
Nope Beyonder was playing along and also I don’t think Goku can power steal. Beyonder roflstomps.
At most he lolstomps, but I still don’t see it. Goku has his Kaio-Ken after all, which can give him an extra boost.
Or y’know, summon Goku’s polar opposite.
Clones can’t beat the original!
This is pure cancer. The Beyonder could erase the concept of Dragon Ball itself just as easily as he erased the concept of death in the Marvel Multiverse. Goku could not put a scratch on him or even land a hit on him for that matter.
Goku just needs one good punch to win this round
Goku can NOT even land a single punch on the Beyonder. You see, what you fail to understand is that although Goku might be fast, the Beyonder can travel through the entire Marvel Multiverse in the time it takes for Goku to react to his absence.
I think we’re underestimating Goku here. Have you seen his Ultra Instinct? It’s Krrrrrazy. I dare say that the Beyonder would get wrecked the instant that the fight started.
Goku absolutely has no chance against pre-retcon boyoder..
He was omnipotent
complete warp reality
can erase a multiverse just by thinking it
million times more powerful than the entire marvel multiverse combined
was up for debate to be arguably the strongest character ever created in any form of fiction
only the one above all, man of miracles and possibly the presence and kami tenchi could stand up to him.
If the opponent is not omnipotent.. they should not be in the equation..
Let’s not forget how Dr Doom wrecked the Beyonder though. This guy’s tough, but I haven’t seen anything to suggest that he could stand up to the Kamehameha, although his fight with the Phoenix was certainly impressive.
Dr, Doom was less than an ant to the beyonder. Doom is not omnipotent. Keep in mind that beyonder limited himself the whole time. He was only using a fraction of his power. Pre-retcon molecule man was the only one at the time that had any chance and even he was an ant to the beyonder. What part of omnipotence do you not understand. It was clearly stated secret wars that Beyonder could not be beaten unless he allowed it or willed it. Back then before the retcon, beyonder was second to no one.
The only part of omnipotence that I don’t understand in fiction is that the character doesn’t seem that impressive. Goku could just speedblitz the living daylights out of the Beyonder and that would be the end of the match. I just don’t see this cosmic being holding a candle to a Saiyan who was raised on Earth. That’s a killer combo if you ask me and it’s why Goku’s still known as one of the greatest heroes who ever lived.
… I am appalled that rhis
Goku stomps though.
And this is why people can’t stand dbz fan boys. Nothing Goku can do, nothing.Goku has COMES ANYWHERE CLOST TO BEYONDER LET ALONE PRECON BEYONDER!
First ability the only one needed, that ends this arguement is omnipotence.
(of a deity) having unlimited power; able to do anything.
synonyms: all-powerful, almighty, supreme, preeminent, most high; More
What does this mean?
All of goku’s ability depend on ki, and his ability to control and manipulate it. How is he going to use any of his abilties when it won’t even take the beyonder 1/10 of a micro second to remove goku’s ability to control or manipulate ki IN ANY FORM?
There is no Kamehameha, if Goku can’t even tap into his own ki, there is no speed blitzing, there is no enhanced strength; there is nothing!
Martial arts? Any and all memory both from his mind and muscle memory can be removed. Sounds farfetched? Omnipotence, anything that can be conceived as a thought can be made reality by him. There is nothing, no ability Goku possesses, not action Goku can take that can tickle let alone hurt the beyonder.
Your whole argument with the other is just seeped in bias thought, that goku is unbeatable. But I’ll continue
(of God) present everywhere at the same time.
widely or constantly encountered; common or widespread.
“the omnipresent threat of natural disasters”
synonyms:ubiquitous, all-pervasive, everywhere;More
There is NO WHERE Goku can speedblitz, instant transmission, run, fly, jump, or whatever too that the beyonder WON’T KNOW. You can’t argue it, you can’t debate it, because now you’d be debating the very definition of the word.
“the story is told by an omniscient narrator”
synonyms:all-knowing, all-wise, all-seeing
“he thought I was some kind of omniscient guru”
Unlike Goku, he would already know what he’s up against, what his opponent is going to do, and how to beat it. Only the one above all (and his other equivalents in image, and DC), the actual creator of the Marvel universe, not the celestial, can smack him down.
Oh and your arguement using broly, broly is my favorite dbz character one planet at a time. He didn’t destroy a galaxy in a single blast. The beyonder can destroy a universe, hell multiverse as a WHOLE with a mir thought! The feats ARE NOT EQUAL!
Goku>>>>Most of media!
What the hell is the point of creating this blog when you’re just gonna make Goku win every damn time. Goku isn’t even the strongest in his own damn Universe. Beerus, Whis, and Zeno are light-years above him. So you can stop saying he’s “unbeatable”. Goku couldn’t even beat Thor who literally transmutes energy and can manipulate matter to some extent. Last time I checked, the DB fighters aren’t resistant to hax powers such as reality warping, telekinesis, molecular manipulation, energy transmution, time manipulation, etc. Making characters like Captain Atom, Molecule Man, Franklin Richards, Silver Surfer, James Jaspers, Professor X, Phoenix, Doctor Strange, and many more who could defeat Goku in under a second.
By the way, I don’t hate dbz. I watch dbs super every week. I just don’t understand why dB fans like you like to wank Goku to the point where they claim he can beat anyone and say he’s god. It’s so irrational.
Whoa, lets back up. Goku’s not unbeatable at all. He’s only the second strongest being in all of media as Bass is far superior. Glad to see that you’re a DBZ fan too. We have to show people that the Z fighters are highly underrated.
listen here you idiot goku is nowhere near beyonder goku at best is shown to be at universal level while beyonder is at the least multiversal and in pre recton is omnipotent goku would get crushed you ignorant dumbass
You lost me. I thought everyone knew Goku was far stronger than Beyonder?
He is not. Get this through that thick skull of yours. Even the Living Tribunal backed by Eternity, Uatu the Watcher, Galactus, Mephisto, other cosmic entities, AND Owen Reece would not engage the Beyonder, even if the balance of the multiverse was about to be upset.
Goku would slaughter those guys in a matter of moments. You’re heavily underestimating what Goku is capable of and overestimating the cosmic dudes. They just can’t fight on his level
When you’re an omnipotent badass you don’t need to know how to fight when you can will someone out of existence, just like Beyonder he can remove the entire dbz universe just by a thought so you failed once again, oh and you’re more dumb than a rocks at least rocks know what being an omnipotent means
Please Understand 🙂
Beyonder has the edge in Goku in every category Trillions of times over besides speed (Technically he has the edge in that too since he’s omnipresent)
Beyonder wins without even moving.
Aren’t you forgetting about the Kamehameha wave?
Beyonder has Durability feats to prove he can take the Kamehameha wave
Nobody can casually take the Kamehameha wave.
The thing was scaling GT to Battle of the gods is GT isn’t canon. So it’s almost impossible to scale.
I still don’t see how the scaling would let him bust Billions of dimensions.
True enough I suppose, the scaling is tricky. Either way, Super Kaio Ken Super God Saiyan Mode is essentially invincible
So is PR beyonder
Yes, but PR Beyonder lacks the skills to really fight!
He did fight in the Comics though
Oh yes, and he is certainly one of the most impressive cosmic fighters. I just meant that he’s not ready to handle someone like Goku yet. He’s definitely still a pretty big threat.
Beyonder was ready for the entire marvel universe.
So goku will be an Atom to him
Not the Kamehameha wave though. Personally, I don’t see Beyonder living through such an attack.
His durability feats suggest otherwise
I gotta disagree there.
Pre-Retcon Beyonder, without even intending to, has destroyed whole galaxies just by being lost in agitated thought. In a therapy session of sorts with Owen Reece, his outbursts destroyed entire dimensions, which Owen had to repair. After he threatened to destroy all of creation because of that very same frustration, then later came back to apologize, Owen blasted the Beyonder with an attack that would have destroyed billions of dimensions, which the latter shrugged off like he was a fully armored knight being punched by a kid. And finally, when Owen and the Beyonder clashed, the entire Marvel Multiverse felt the tremors caused by their powers.
Goku at his most powerful can barely destroy ONE universe. Beyonder at his most powerful had the power to destroy ALL OF CREATION ITSELF.
Goku at his strongest has power that is completely unfathomable. Lets not low ball him
Yes they can.
They just have to have durability feats that far surpass the Kamehameha wave’s Output.
Right, but nobody has that. Especially since the Kamehameha continues to get stronger with each film.
The Kamehameha wave doesn’t have feats to prove it can hurt beyonder. It’s best feat was in GT which is non canon.
It’s universal if you use the most reasonable speculation. Beyonder tanked an attack that would have destroyed billions of dimensions/Universes
Beyonder has durability feats to prove he won’t be phased by the Kamehameha wave
You’re forgetting that raw power>>feats. Goku’s Kamehameha was able to take on foes like Frieza and Cell, both are monsters that could obliterate the Beyonder with a single hit. Every new power up from Goku makes the Kamehameha stronger as a result. That’s why I don’t see this round being all that close imo.
Beyonder has taken on more raw power than the Kamehameha . The Kamehameha has nothing to remotely indicate it could even phase Beyonder.
Based on what could Cell and Freiza one shot beyonder? That is seriously overrating DBZ and Downplaying Marvel.
The round isn’t close because Beyonder could solo the DBZ verse without trying
The Kamehameha is one of the strongest attacks in all of media. I believe that you are seriously underestimating it right now. Basically, starting at Frieza from the Namek Saga, any DBZ character could take Beyonder down for the count. He’s strong…for a comic book character, but it won’t help him a whole lot against these guys. They outrank him in strength and speed.
The Kamehameha is not that strong. Severe overestimating. A lot of people have feats to prove they can take it.
You have to prove that cell or freiza are strong enough to take down PR beyonder. Let alone one shot him.
Beyonder is omnipresencet. Can’t be faster then that And they have no feats for there strength to be on par with PR beyonder
I gotta disagree there. The Kamehameha is basically a force of nature. The only way to stop it is to counter with a better blast like the Darkness Overload or something like that. Beyonder lacks the speed and power that Frieza and Cell have demonstrated.
That’s your opinion. The Kamehameha is unlikely to harm someone who has better durability feats.
Beyonder showed more power. But he showed almost no speed.
Beyonder is definitely lacking in speed, I agree with you there. That being said, I don’t believe he could tank the Kamehameha. Do I need to get into the Solar System busting feats again?
You don’t need to because Beyonder has tanked attacks which could have busted Billions of dimensions
Yes, which is a nice exaggeration from Marvel Comics, but it has the same effect as some of the latter Toriko feats. You begin to doubt the scale of it all or you need to buff Goku accordingly to compensate.
What proof do you have that the omniscence beyonder was lying?
Not lying per say. He knew it to be true to an extent.
Exactly. So the attack could have destroyed billions of dimensions meaning he can take the Kamehameha wave.
That just means that the Kamehameha could possibly do that.
What evidence do you have the Kamehameha wave could do that
That was back in Arc 2. The Kamehameha has grown infinitely more powerful since then.
That’s a statement. Doesn’t rule number 9 say only feats?
Anyway there are Billions of solar systems in a single dimension
It’s a statement that’s backed up by feats though. Given that guys like Master Roshi could blow up the Moon and that Raditz could blow up the planet, the Solar System makes sense. It’s barely even power scaling at that point. Goku’s kamehameha in GT did bust a dimension so there’s that. (Ripped a hole in it anyway and that was a weakened version)
What proof is there that raditz could destory a planet? Powerlevels can’t be scaled off.
GT isn’t canon
GT not being canon doesn’t take away from the feats. Power Levels can be directly scaled off of each other. With Raditz’s power level of 1000, he would have enough energy to hit the Earth’s Core with his lasers and that would take out the planet.
I’m fairly sure an official DBZ source stated power levels can’t be scaled off.
GT isn’t canon. You can’t use non canon feats.
For the match, composite includes non canon as well. Hypothetically we don’t have to count it, but it doesn’t change a whole lot. Either way, Resurrection F’s blue form gives Goku enough fire power to take this.
So goku can now destroy billions of dimensions?
We just have to go back to the power scaling. Planet Buster to Solar System Buster to Dimension Ripper to Reality Ripper. It makes sense and Goku now has the Super Saiyan Kaio Ken God Mode which gives him another increase of 10x
The thing is scaling GT to Battle of the gods is GT isn’t canon. So it’s almost impossible to scale.
I still don’t see how the scaling would let him bust Billions of dimensions.
Pre-retcon Beyonder doesn’t lack anything.. He can will anything he wants.. He was the ultimate reality warper.. Lol!! If wants whales flying singing we are the 🌎 then he can will it with just his mind..
Yes, but what he can’t will, is a way yo dodge the Spirit Bomb.
Just fly away gg.
Plus the Spirit bomb only harms evil and takes a long time to charge
Granted, Beyonder could probably fly out of the way, but he may be in shock by that point. I also think that the Spirit Bomb could hurt good people if Goku wanted it too.
Proof that Spirit Bomb can hurt good people?
Proof that pure energy would not hurt people?
The Spirit Bomb was said only to hurt evil people.
Prove that this is not true
I’ll point to the video games. You can use the attack on Goku.
Video games aren’t canon
They aren’t canon, but this is composite. Unless you want to hypothetically just talk canon versions.
Oh right, Blog rules.
Although go to most other debating sites and no one will say Spirit Bomb would work on good people.
That’s true, most other sites don’t do the whole composite thing. Even if we take it out for the sake of a noncomposite fight, just switch in Kamehameha for Spirit Bomb and all of our comments will still be more or less the same.
Beyonder can tank a Kamehameha
I don’t think so. You see what it did to Frieza?
That shows how crazy strong Frieza is!
It happened though
True and I call plot hax on that. Goku should have owned!
Prove it’s Plot hax?
My proof is the fact that Resurrection F exists. The power levels made no sense there.
What do you mean?
Frieza training for a little while shouldn’t put him on Goku’s level.
It was several months. Plus Freiza was training very hard
Yes, but there is still no logical way that he could get that much stronger in such a short period of time. It is completely impossible.
In fiction the Impossible is Possible
Not when it defies my logic it isn’t.
Your definition of logic blurs the line between stupidity
Blurs the line between what else? Between logic and hype?
Your logic isn’t really logic. It’s just stupidity
Tell that to Bass!
I can’t. He’s a fictional character
That’s the problem with fictional characters…they never listen when it is crunch time!
They can’t listen
What if they could though?
They don’t exist.
This is true.
Stop being stupid, beyonder blinks Zeno out of existence
I can’t stop, won’t stop, Because I need the truth!
Umm what. No. Beyonder takes it, in any of his forms.
I gotta disagree. Goku completely destroys him in terms of raw power and coolness.
Coolness? Lol. Fanboy. Go by feats not “who like more.”
Okay, but I do like looking at both.
Coolness is your opinion. In raw power lol nope,
I agree about the opinion, but raw power as well.
@John Cena I was talking that we should go by feats, not “coolness.” Lol.
Goku’s raw power is nothing compared to Beyonder’s.
Beyonder is okay, but keep in mind that he was fighting in Marvel world. He wouldn’t last a minute in DBZ land.
Marvel is way stronger than DBZ.
I don’t think so to be honest. Keep in mind that Marvel and DC can’t hold their own against titles like Bleach, let alone DBZ.
Marvel and DC would stomp Bleach.
Tell that to Ichigo post Hueco Mundo arc. He would speedblitz them all.
Nope. Has he had a fight in a Picosecond?
@Dreager1 DBZ isn’t even close to Marvel/DC/Image in terms of power. Provide a scan saying Goku can destroy a universe.
Show me a scan where he can’t? If you’re serious, I can bring up DBGT the final fight with Omega Shenron.
Wow, you might as well say Goku could beat Living Tribunal. The final fight with Omega Shenron didn’t impress me that much. I’m being serious alright.
I’m being serious as well. I believe that Omega Shenron said that his blast would destroy the universe or the galaxy. Something like that.
Beyonder is basically confirmed to be God
Beyonder makes Stan Lee bows
Only place accurate for Pre-Retcon Beyonder Profile ever.
He is basically/essentially God
“Omnipotence isnt impressive.”-Dreager1
Ew even as a Dragon Ball fan your wank/downplay is TRULY unmatched.
Beyonder wiped out GALAXIES in mere seconds.
Beyonder wiped out planets with a single gesture.
Beyonder erased an ENTIRE universe just because a fleet attacked him.
Beyonder FOUGHT and BEAT celestials you know? Universe+ creators?
Beyonder mere thoughts are reality anything he SAYS/THINGS is basically true if he says “Goku is nothing.” Then Goku ceases to exist.
Dont be a dbztards bruh dont be like them because people are making fun of you for your comments and its sad.
Why do people make fun of me?
Well, you think Goku could solo Marvel/DC/Image which is the definition of a Dbztard.
I prefer to be called a confident DBZ fan. Goku would wreck them all with ease to be honest though.
Jesus Christ, even DBZtards are smarter than you. Either Rune King Thor or Jean Grey as the White Phoenix of the Crown alone can defeat Goku at his most powerful, and both of them are way below what the Beyonder is capable of doing. If you can’t provide feats of Goku even being properly destroying ONE universe in a heartbeat, or creating one just as fast, then he is nowhere near capable of taking down a multiversal-level entity.
Who isn’t smarter than me?
You do realize the Pre-Recon Beyonder once destroyed infinite realities right? And the fact that he’s immortal…as in ageless and cannot die. And he can casually traverse through the universes as easily as one would travel through the park.
Don’t you get it? Even if Goku can land a hit on him, it doesn’t matter. Prior to being re-conned the Beyonder made the abstract entities of the Marvel multiverse tremble.
Y’know…”abstract entitles”. As in entities that serve as the embodiment of the forces of existence!
The Beyonder is at his strongest in this stage and could easily disintegrate, reintegrate, and disintegrate Goku again before he even had time to use his strongest moves.
Simply put, the Pre-Recon Beyonder shouldn’t even be allowed to enter the arena.
That’s a lot of hype, but the Beyonder still can’t handle someone as powerful as Goku. Travelling great distances and scaring entities who are always scared isn’t quite as impressive as it sounds.
Ok, ok, listen. Give me Goku’s greatest feat.
Give me the most greatest, most hype induced, most astounding thing Goku has EVER done…and we’ll see if the Beyonder can’t measure up to it.
That would have to be the Kamehameha wave. It took down Buu and is said to even be able to destroy a solar system. The pure power behind it is simply unstoppable for just about any fighter. Whatever it hits….it obliterates!
Y’know what, I don’t even think you’re serious.
It’s more that we all know the question is fairly rigged. In terms of quantifiable feats, Goku’s never been given a chance to do anything that’s really indicative of his true power. He’s still in the top 2 though
No, I know you can;t be serious about this.
In this single thread you have been given information on the Beyonder that clearly puts him at a level far above Goku. He was describes as OMNIPOTENT and OMIPRESENT in the comics, therefore making it canon. You can’t just suggest Goku can destroy multiple universes just based on assumptions. Even if he could, what’s to stop the Beyonder from going back in time to kill Goku while he flying from planet Vegeta? He can do anything.
But what you fail to understand. Goku may not be omnipotent, omnipresent and immortal like the Beyonder, but in a way, that makes the greater character.
Y’see, even IF Goku reaches his full potential, he is limited because that makes for a good character. Goku is on a journey to be come stronger. If he had the power to best EVERONE, do you think anyone would find any depth in his character. Now that Dragon Ball Super is out, Goku is stronger than ever, yet there are still people he has put up a struggle against.
That was not the case with the Beyonder.
That’s why he was re coned. That’s why he was bested by Doctor Doom. That’s why he was reduced a cosmic cube and an inhuman.
He was just too powerful.
Anyone with the mental capacity to understand the words OMNIPOTENT and IMMORTAL must know how this battle would play out.
Which is why I think you don’t mean anything you say. I think you only put up this thread to waist people’s time and infuriate them with your incomprehensibly stubborn arguments. I’m surprised it took me this long to figure this out. This who battle was just some trap to get anyone who sees it in a fan war that based on something as stupid as omnipotence and immortality against Goku. Deep down, I KNOW you don’t think Goku can win. You’re just hyping him up to bring spite.
But not me.
Because I know the outcome of this battle. Anyone who knows both the Beyonder and Goku knows the outcome of this battle. So no matter what you say. No matter what feats Goku has. No matter how powerful you think he is. It doesn’t matter in the end. Goku loses and the Beyonder prevails.
End of story.
I can’t totally agree with that to be honest. Goku’s too cool and powerful!
Sorry for the long comment. At first I was going full nerd war, but I think I have regained my composure.
Most excellent then
You…don’t know what immortality or omnipotence means do you?
What if I said yes?
My point still stands though.
What I’m trying to say is, I’ve seen Goku destroy actual energy.
With his fists or with a beam?
Well, being immortal, there’s no way Goku could beat the Beyonder right?
Eh, it just means it’ll delay the inevitable. Trust me, the Beyonder will still go down easy
No, dude, the Beyonder has infinite stamina and is immortal.
By definition he CAN’T DIE and can’t get tired.
Meaning, unlike Goku, he could literally fight for centuries.
How can Goku eviscerate something immune to death?
How can he eviscerate someone who KILLED death?
Goku does not have unlimited power like the Beyonder.
Every character can die. Those who have not yet simply haven’t faced the right opponent. Goku will show him the light of oblivion!
Well, I guess there’s only one thing left to do now.
However, if you have any literary issues, you may be in for some trouble.
Also, for the sake of simplicity, let’s say the universes in both Marvel and DBZ have the same composition
First, let me give you some actual facts about the Beyonder shown in the Secret Wars vol 2 series. Remember, these are FACTS based on actual events instead of a bias opinion.
You’ve probably heard this before (though based on your stubbornness, you also completely disregarded it), but the Beyonder has the innate ability to warp reality merely by creating whatever idea he can conceive. This has allowed him to alter the minds of others, control all matter on a subatomic level, regenerate any and all damage sustained, control limitless stores of energy, biologically enhance his powers however he wishes, and a few others I won’t waist your time with.
This one already has danger written all over it. As we know, Goku’s profession in terms of mental capabilities are sustained only in combat. Yes, Goku is an adept strategist as a fighter, though the Beyonder can easily warp his mind. Y’see, though Goku can be considered a genius in combat, he is considered ignorant outside that field. Not only has the Beyonder taken the minds of those with more powerful minds, he has also gain dominion over beings who would other wise have the ability to defend themselves against psychic attacks. In addition, unlike Goku, the Beyonder does not need to see his opponent in order to stop them. He can easily say outside the twelve universes of the Dragon Ball continuity, telepathically signal Goku to stay constrained .in his universe, and then destroy it along with Goku. Because Goku has shown to posses no means of defense against telephaths, the Beyonder can easily do this.
2. Matter Manipulation:
As if telepathy wasn’t already an insane power for an already insane character, the Beyonder can control anything composed of matter on the molecular level. With this, he can control EVERYTHING around him to the point of making pure energy and bacteria obey his every command. Even if his body does lose its form through disintegration, his consciousness is still able to live on and reconstruct his body at the atomic level. Therefore, if he wanted to give Goku a very uncomfortable death, he could continuously bombard Goku with all of the bacteria on the planet and beyond. Seen as how Goku was vulnerable to a fatal earth heart disease back in DBZ that could have killed had it not been for future medicine, it only makes sense that such a large quantity of bacteria would kill him instantly. Also, seen as how senzu beans did not improve his condition, several foreign forms of bacteria flooding Goku’s system will be quite a problem. And that’s only one of numerous thing he could. Because Goku’s entire body is composed of matter, there are infinite possibilities as to what the Beyonder could do to Goku’s body.infinite with his knowledge. He could alter the energy in Goku’s body, he could alter the atmosphere to suffocate him, or he could simply separate all of the molecular bonds in Goku’s body to disintegrate him entirely. Keep in mind that he does not have to be in the same planet or universe in order to interact or see his foes.
3. Cosmic Power in General:
This is just an overview of what the Beyonder is capable of as a cosmic entity. For one thing, as it is established in the Marvel continuity, all cosmic entities have been alive since creation and are immortal due to their higher status above all other beings. In addition, he has the ability to control time and space to a greater degree and possesses physical resistance to attacks that could destroy “several billion dimensions”; a feat that Goku is light years away from reaching with his Kamehameha or his universal Super Spirit Bomb. As for destructive power, the Beyonder also outclasses Goku as shown from his ability to destroy an entire multiverse composed of hundreds of thousands of universe with mere rage. In a similar case, he also casually destroyed parallel universe without even extending his hands and casually crossed through the many layers of the Multiverse in a fashion greater than Goku’s universally constrained instant transmition. In fact, as shown during the first Secret Wars, the Beyonder can teleport Goku to any location. However, if he wants to compensate for Goku’s speed, he will need to take advantage of Goku being restrained from having the power to exit his universe without the aid of Whis. With this advantage, the Beyonder could levitate outside the twelve universes of DBZ and destroy the universe Goku lives in or become one with the universe itself to become everything and everyone simultaneously.
Consider the enemies Goku has sustained damage from compared to the Multiversal attacks the Beyonder was able to resist and execute. Think about Goku’s energy sensing ability being limited to being with ki rather than cosmic energy. It is also worth noting how Goku can run out of ki if he uses to much power in a fight while there is not limit to the Beyonder’s energy.
Also, before you spout more vague nonsense about Goku’s Kamehameha or Spirit Bomb, think about all the FACTS established about the Beyonder’s powers on a multiversal scale in comparison to Goku’s universal power.
I know this is a lot, but this is everything I have at this point.
Before I spout more vague nonsense about Goku’s Kamehameha and the Spirit Bomb, here are some hype things to consider.
1. Reality Warping never amounts to much. It’s a nice parlor trick for villains like the Grudge or The Ring to mess with humans, but it won’t do a whole lot beyond that. To someone like Goku, The Beyonder may as well not have that ability. He can’t do anything to Goku that Goku doesn’t want done to him. That’s really the bottom line for the Saiyan Hero.
2. Telepathy has been shown to not work so well on Saiyans. Vegeta was able to completely throw off the mind control that Babidi tried to zap him with and that mage was quite skilled. No such technique would work on one such as Goku.
3. Goku’s no stranger to beings of incredible power. He’s taken down Frieza, Cell, and Buu. I dare say that he would even be able to beat Meta Cooler if they had a rematch at this point. Beyonder may shake universes and do whatever he wants, but Goku relies on the fundamentals. He knows how to psych out an opponent and how to just punch them into submission. What’s to stop Goku from just obliterating the Beyonder? His Kamehameha is so powerful that not even regeneration works against it and Beyonder can certainly not win in a physical fight. He is completely outclasses since Goku was already FTL at the beginning of DBZ and has grown exponentially stronger since then.
1. The only reason Babidi’s mind control didn’t work on Vegeta was due to to his power being limited to only working on beings with evil in their hearts. However, like all telepathic beings in the Marvel continuity, an evil or pure mind does not effect the potency of their attack.
2. If the Beyonder being refereed to as a reality warper or an omnipotent being are just boasts, then many claims made in Dragon Ball can just as easily be placed in that same category. For instance, Cell’s perfect kamehameha was said to have the power to destroy the entire solar system, which was taken seriously in spite of him not doing so. In fact, many of your comments based on comparisons in Goku’s power can also be placed in this same category.
3. Even IF all your hype is valid, what’s to stop the Beyonder from unifying himself with Goku’s universe in the same manner he did in 616. If anything, the universe he embodied should be larger due to more planets and galaxies being cataloged in marvel . If he wanted to, while as the universe, he could bombard Goku with bacteria until he eventually dies.
4. Unlike the Beyonder, Goku’s powers rely solely on ki. Ki, in DBZ, is the fundamental element that gives every being in their reality power. The Beyonder does not have ki, nor does he need to use it in order to destroy an infinite number of realities. Goku, on the other hand, not only requires ki, but he can also just as easily run out of it. If Goku were to use excessive ki blasts, such as the kamehameha, he would lose ki and stamina. Plus, unlike the Beyonder, Goku needs to eat and sleep.
5. Though I still have much uncertainty in regards to this, Goku has limits while fighting in space. It has been shown that Goku has to remain close to the upper layer of Earth’s atmosphere in order to be counted as fighting off planet. This leaves even greater uncertainty when Frieza lays claim to how he has the power the breathe in space, while Goku can’t. In fact, during the earth’s destruction in Battle of the Gods and DBS, Whis corrects the z warriors in their assumption of Frieza making a suicide attempt in killing himself off along with Vegeta and earth itself. Vegeta is supposedly dead, though Frieza unique physiology allows him to survive. In any event, never has Goku, or any saiyan, fought in the complete and desolate vacuum of space light years away from a planet. Space is practically a walk in the park for the Beyonder.
6. Read this scan in its entirety.
6. I stopped at number 20 since it was so false. Someone needs to make an article about the 20 truths that DBZ fans have uttered.
5. Vegeta did step outside his capsule once in filler though so I like to think that Goku would last a while in space. Either way, I don’t think Beyonder would be able to drag the fight out long enough for it to matter.
4. Goku can run out of Ki, but it would take ages and the Beyonder doesn’t have that much time. A few good Kamehamehas and it’s game over.
3. If Beyonder became the universe it would be his downfall. Goku would just crush it and the Beyonder really wouldn’t be able to dodge at that point.
2. Nah, the Solar System comment is a proven fact. Also, I don’t mean to discredit Beyonder as being a reality warper, I’m just saying that it wouldn’t matter. There still isn’t anything that he could do to Goku with it. Goku’s too strong.
1. Nah, it was Vegeta’s will power. Saiyans can’t be mind controlled except for plot hax.
Goku crushing an entire universe. Seriously?
Even if he could do that, the Beyonder could from that universal vessel via his ability to transfer his consciousness the same way he beat Doctor Doom. IF Goku could destroy a universe, he would have done it for nothing.
I’m just gonna go out on a limb and say that I feel sorry for you. It saddens me to know that you underestimate the power of the Beyonder to the point of thinking he is weaker than Goku in spite of the fact that Goku has not done anything that puts him anywhere near the Beyonder.
It’s basic logic.
Goku can’t destroy a several billion dimensions. It’s hard to say he can even destroy a single universe, let alone bring himself to ending that many lives under any circumstances. At the most, in his greatest fight against Beerus, the shock waves of his attacks only effected one universe.
The Beyonder ruptured reality itself just by standing in one place. BY HIMSELF.
Those “parlor tricks” are the essence of true power, which you underestimate in order to make Goku seem stronger.
It is SO EASY to see how this battle will turn out, yet you are deliberately trying to enhance Goku’s capabilities beyond what they actually are in order to make this battle sway in your favor. You blame REAL occurrences in DBZ that reveal the truth of Goku’s weaknesses on “PLOT HAX” in spite of the fact that, unlike your ridiculous hype, those failures actually happened to add to the fact that there are things GOKU CAN’T DO.
Goku can’t kill death itself.
He can’t control matter.
He can’t travel through universes
He can’t shape-shift
He can’t alter the very fabric of existence
He most certainly can’t be so cold as to destroy an entire universe. (That is IF he has the power to do so.)
No mater what lies you bring, or what fake weaknesses you try to place, the Beyonder’s cosmic power will end in his utter victory based on the TRUTH.
Whether or not you can understand that is all up to you.
If you want to live a lie, go ahead. But do so knowing that you just snubbed a being of literally infinite power.
It’s you loss.
You seem shaken. No worries, I once felt that way as well when I first realized Goku’s true power. It’s scary to see his true might for the first time. Saiyan power is true power
Tell me dreager1, if Goku were to use every ounce of his power (full power, kaio ken, super saiyan blue) and fired his strongest kamehameha, what would he destroy in the process. (Note that in this separate scenario, collateral damage does not matter.)
Could be everything to be honest. Why?
Like everything around him. I don’t think there is an object or individual who would be okay after getting hit by the Kamehameha like that
I mean in terms of universes.
Right, it’s hard to quantify so I’d basically just say everything. As in, anything that can be broken by an attack will be broken by the Kamehameha
Look dude, I’ve up and about on you channel. I’ve seen you’re discussions with others and it pains me to know that they had to deal with this kind of balderdash.
If you have no proof or feats that put Goku as a universal level being at full power, then the Beyonder wins.
#FeelsBadMan Look, I know you think Beyonder is tough and he’s not terrible. As far as Marvel characters go, I’d probably put him Top 50 if not Top 20. That being said, you can’t just go from Marvel to DBZ and hope for success. DBZ is on a whole nother level
Unless you have feats or claims from their creators saying that they can destroy universe, I can’t agree with your ridiculous claims.
Should I bring up the Cell Solar System feat?
Still doesn’t even compare to a universe, what with there being billions of galaxies being in a single universe.
Therefore, Goku can’t beat the Beyonder by means of basic rudimentary logic.
Where’d you get that from? Goku’s faster and stronger than the Beyonder, not to mention more versatile.
Well in terms of speed, the Beyonder was able to unify himself with everything and everyone, therefore allowing him to be nowhere and everywhere at once. That therefore makes the Beyonder faster than Goku in the sense that he can be everywhere and everything without effort.
That’s actually a bad thing. That means Goku can hurt him from anywhere. He could punch the ground and it would hurt the Beyonder
If that is the case, then why did he not feel pain in the midst of the turbulence occurring in the universe he possessed. He has complete control over his body.
He probably did feel pain and then they had to cut away. That or he decided not to go through with it and was tricking everyone, all around the world.
If it didn’t happen in the official media, it didn’t happen at all.
Are you trying to say that we can’t say Goku’s an omniverse buster because he hasn’t actually blown one up yet?
We need feats and facts. We need actual events that boost that claim.
I mean, that’s like ME calling the Beyonder an Omniversal level threat even though he haan’t destroyed multiple multiverse.
No complete universal feats= no truthful way of saying Goku can beat the Beyonder.
I think you’re underrating Goku here. Lets put this into perspective. Could Beyonder beat Frieza? No. Could he beat Cell? No. Could he have taken on Vegeta in a close fight? No. So, how could he beat Goku? Goku’s proven time and time again that his ki abilities are completely unreal and that he can take on any opponent who gets in his way. I don’t see how the Beyonder can even keep this reasonably close. He simply doesn’t fight much and has never fought someone on Goku’s level.
Have any of them been shown to have the power to destroy a universe?
Yes. Broly blew up a galaxy and he was far weaker than Vegeta.
And yet, in midst of their battles, the most their attacks did in terms of destruction were planet scale at the most.
That’s just more on the writers having more fun with the fight than worrying about the calcs
Does that mean that you don’t even know if they can destroy universes?
I was just upgrading your comment. I’d say that they’re definitely universe busters
Based on some information gathered from a guy with free time and math skills, an attacks power level has to be at least 14,500,000,000,000,000
Goku’s strongest godly Kamehameha only had a power level of 9,000,000,000,000,000 based on his mathematical progress against his many foes.
It’s not enough.
I think you forgot a few 0s in the Goku Kamehameha. Trust me, numbers can be misleading, but Goku’s strength always defies expectations. Just look at his Saiyan abilities. One good hit and everyone else falls into line.
However, saying Frieza and Cell can destroy universes is complete balderdash.
In Cell’s final moments, he uses ALL of his power in kamehameha. However, he said that he would destroy A solar system. Therefore meaning his “perfect kamehameha” was about as perfect as Goku hunger tolerance.
Also, seen as how Cell is clearly stronger than Frieza, it also confirms the fact the Frieza himself lacks the power to destroy a universe.
Just cuz it could destroy a Solar System doesn’t mean that it couldn’t destroy a universe. Put it this way, when you tell someone that you can eat 2 cheeseburgers, it doesn’t mean that you couldn’t eat a third right? It’s all about putting a minimum baseline for yourself while not reaching the top. Also, don’t forget that Frieza got his Gold form which seriously boosted his power.
I guess it’s my win.
It’s okay dude. Sometimes the truth is hard to embrace when your favorite characters are brought to the light of vs. battle logic.
Is this your concession?
Well dude, there are billions of solar systems in a single universe. Just because he can destroy one, does not mean he can destroy several.
That’s like saying I can lift an entire brick house simply due to the fact I can lift one brick from that house.
Anyway, unless Goku has feats of him destroying universes, I can only assume that you lying in order make him seem stronger than he actually is.
After all, your own rules actually support this.
“9. Only shown, or otherwise eligible feats count.”
Because Goku has never shown any feats that put him above the Beyonder, he can’t be classified as the superior entity based on your own rules.
That may be true, but keep in mind that DBZ got crazy with the power ups by the end. I don’t lie though, I just bring up the facts. 9 is valid and it’s my favorite rule of them all, you’re just underselling Goku and overhyping the Beyonder. Just look at the stat sheets
Look, clearly you don’t have a viable argument.
I’m just gonna go out on a limb and say Goku won’t be able to win this fight.
Assumptions do not equal facts.
I always have a ton of viable arguments. Just look at how I roasted someone’s rebuttal with one of my own in the latest Supergirl review on 411 Mania. Goku’s got this and I do agree that facts and assumptions are two different ball games
Your right, Goku is powerful.
His martial arts skills are impeccable, his strength in inconceivable, and his potential has yet to be realized.
However, there are many things Goku can’t do.
He is restricted in his own universe, unlike the Beyonder
He can’t make the very molecules that encompass him and the universe, unlike the Beyonder
He make time, space, and matter bend to his will, unlike the Beyonder.
He can’t imagine the impossible into existence, like the Beyonder.
Part of what makes Goku enjoyable is the fact that in spite of being strong, he is far from being the STRONGEST.
With the Beyonder it’s different story, seen as how his powers are so ridiculous, it’s almost boring to put him in a fight.
“SSGSS Goku atomizes the Beyonder with a full power Kamehameha and destroyed his universe!”
“Oh … the Beyonder’s consciousness still went on and he reassembles from the subatomic level and now knows how strong Goku’s attacks are.”
“Look, Goku fired another full power Kamehameha!”
“Ohhhhhhh… the Beyonder returned again and reincarnated himself with even more durability”
The thing about the Beyonder at his full power is the fact that he was INTENDED in the past to to be the one adversary not even the almighty could beat.
He was described as “God before Genisis”
But Goku HAS limits because his entire character in every series he’s been in revolves around trying to grow stronger even though their is an even stronger character around the other corner.
Goku’s strength isn’t what makes him a good fighter.
He’s a good fighter because he tries to become greater that what he currently is.
The Beyonder is different because there is NO limit to what he can do, which automatically sacrifices an interesting and admirable character for one you know is going to win in the long run because they have NO weaknesses.
I gotta disagree. Goku’s always been the strongest and that’s why he’s likable. He shows that anyone can train and surpass even the gods of the realm. Beyonder can try to keep on regenerating after the Kamehameha, but he’ll run out of stamina after one shot and then it’s eradication time.
That’s the thing about the Beyonder, his “physical form” is infinite in terms of what it can do. He doesn’t have or need stamina in order fight because he never had lungs, eyes, or a body in general.
His body is basically an amorphous energy blob that can change into whatever he wants, such as the time he appeared as an amalgam of various heroes and villains.
Plus, Goku’s new and more powerful form known as “Super Saiyan Blue” actually deteriorates his overall power with usage. Hence when Whis said:
“When he turned Blue during his fight, he wasn’t able to exert even 1/10 of his usual strength. Blue is not a transformation that can be done over and over again in succession. The amount of stamina in consumes makes it a detriment in that regards.”
Goku, need food, sleep, stamina–basically all the things that make him mortal.
Fighting the Beyonder his like fighting living clay. You can beat it and batter it as much you want, but it will just form itself back to whatever it wants to be.
Right, but he won’t keep reforming indefinitely. All regeneration abilities have a limit that can be exploited and getting hit by the Kamehameha will likely do the trick. The Beyonder would have to beat a hasty retreat after that, but Goku would catch him and end him
Oh, and if you were wondering about that “amalgam of various heroes and villains”, here’s what I meant:
It’s actually kinda weird when you look at it a third time.
Yeah, that’s an intriguing design all right
1. Actually, foes like Hulk have regenerative abilities that allow them to recover from injuries in a second or less from even at the atomic level.
2. Unlike other regenerative abilities, the Beyonder is not limited to his anatomy because he doesn’t have an anatomy.
In fact, he’s not even a person. He doesn’t have a gender, nor does he have a definitive physical composition. Because he is a multidimensional entity, his bodily orientation fluctuates with his imagination, thus giving him infinite possibilities to play with when deciding what to be.
Also, because he doesn’t have or need stamina nor does he require any means of replenishing his power, the only limits the Beyonder has in terms of all of his powers are solely based on the ones he makes for himself.
Though, only an idiot TRYING to lose would do that.
3. Goku is fast, though there is no point in having speed if you can’t escape the blast radius. As also revealed in Battle of the Gods and Dragon Ball Super, Whis appears to have the greatest knowledge of the Super Saiyan Blue transformation as well as the power difference between Goku and Vegeta.
Humiliated and desperate, Frieza destroys Earth and everything on it; including Vegeta even at the stage of Super Saiyan Blue. This is confirmed by Whis, the only person who knows of the strengths and weaknesses of Earth’s champions, after saving the only Z Fighters in a protective bubble.
The main difference between these two fighters Whis pointed out is the fact that while Goku knows how to remain spontaneous and fluent in a fight, Vegeta’s way of thinking makes vigilant and rigid. As a result, unlike Goku, Vegeta is not foolish enough to let his energy suppress or naive enough to let his enemy go. If this is the case, then it would appear as though Super Saiyan Blue doesn’t hold up to the force of an exploding planet.
If this is the case, they definitely won’t hold up to a multiversal destroyer.
Besides, as shown when he casually walked through the layers of the Multiverse, the Beyonder wouldn’t even need to make a full foot step in order go farther than Goku could ever go.
4. What is also interesting about the Beyonder, is the fact that he often gives HIMSELF new powers.
For instance, after showing to have no acrobatic skills whatsoever, he starts doing flips in the midst of wrestling match.
In another such instance, he starts by lifting several tons over his head, then has the strength to destroy the armor of Celestials (beings capable of with standing attack from multi-galaxy level opponents like Odin and Zeus) with brute punches.
5. Am I the only one who notices how with almost every threat Goku faces, he can’t do defeat them without help.
With Radiz, he needed to team up with Piccolo a ultimately die.
With Ginu, he need Vegeta, Krillin, and Gohan to help him get back into his body.
With Frieza, not only did he not kill him on the first try, he came back from defeat twice and was killed by Trucks the first time around. The only reason he defeated Frieza the second time around was thanks to Whis, and I doubt he’ll always be around to fix Goku’s screw-ups, especially in a one on one battle.
With Cell, not only did he die again, but he had to leave the “Even More Prefect Cell” for his son to defeat in order to prove he had more potential and to ensure Earth wouldn’t attract any more catastrophes.
With Buu, not only did he he need the collective power of the entire universe’s population in order to finish him off, he also needed Vegeta to keep Buu preoccupied long enough for him to charge his Spirit Bomb.
With Beerus, he needed the hearts of five saiyans to help hem become string enough to face him and even then he couldn’t stop him.
Simply put, in order to for Goku’s enemies to meet their end, Goku’s greatest trump card is his friends and family always being by his side whenever things get hairy.
6. The Beyonder has already displayed feats that put him above Goku in every category that matters including, intelligence, strength, durability, and overall effectiveness in terms of his control over energy.
Though if you want me to make the same power comparisons used to address the destructive capacity of Dragon Ball characters against their defeated foes, then things will get even more ridiculous from there.
In all honesty, Vegeta IS Goku’s better after the events of Dragon Ball Super.
I mean, while Goku needed to become a deity through the efforts of his friends, Vegeta managed to unlock this power without having to rely on any other Saiyans.
Not only that, but after achieving power that rivaled Goku’s before he became a god after being frustrated at Beerus lashing out at his father, Vegeta even shows greater remorse and sentimentality towards his family.
Besides, in the long run, neither of them are strong enough to best Beerus or Whis a battle.
That much we all know to be true.
I can’t really deny that I suppose. Vegeta is amazing. I do disagree on the last part though. Goku and Vegeta can easily destroy Beerus and Whis
And yet, it is clearly stated that they cannot unless they work together, which seems highly unlikely with their lack of cooperation. However, in a one on one battle, both the movie and the Anime clearly state that Beerus, Whis, and Omni-king are more powerful.
You can’t deny clearly stated evidence from the actual media.
I have to deny it. Keep in mind that the author of the DBZ manga came back to help out with the current story and that is why the power levels are so out of focus now. Beerus and Whis can definitely beat the Omni-king, but beyond that Goku has still got this. Keep in mind that Goku and Vegeta were sparring pretty well with Whis in their base forms. Imagine how one sided it would be if they had been in SSG mode.
Basically, what I’m trying to say is that almost all of Goku’s battles ended with him having to rely on his friends.
As a side note, based on the information clearly provided by the Dragon Ball Super Anime and the movie, Goku’s SSB transformation depreciates his power with each transformation and he is still weaker than Beerus and Whis.
Like I’ve said before, it is best to assess all information provided concerning the weaknesses and strengths of the combatants rather than ignoring the facts and using dishonest hype in order to make characters stronger than they really are.
Factually speaking, Goku is NOT the strongest character in Dragon Ball.
Goku still wins in the end though. Factually speaking, how can you not say that Goku is the strongest character. Who defeated Gold Frieza? Who forced Beerus to spare the Earth? Goku’s done all of the leg work in the series with Whis and Beerus just stealing the credit. They’ve been long surpassed by Goku and Vegeta at this point and lets not even get started with Vegito and Gogeta. Those forms would just be overkill
Any person who has watched Dragon Ball Super or the movie knows that Omni-King is the strongest person in the show and still claims that title.
Beerus is still stronger than Goku in terms of feats and the fact that it is stated numerous times in the show.
You need to look at the cold hard facts that clearly explain that Goku is NOT the most powerful character regardless of whatever transformation he uses.
Also, from what I understand, Golden Frieza could have defeated Goku if he let his body adjust to his transformation. The only reason Frieza is dead now is thanks to Whis being kind enough to let Goku fix his mistake (once again relying on his friends to save the day).
With Beerus, the only reason Earth wasn’t destroyed is due to his appreciation of their food and the fact that Beerus himself doesn’t want Goku’s potential to go to waste.
Goku never bested Beerus in battle and the series still shows how Goku is still weaker in the end.
Also, Akira Toriyama himself said that Goku made the power of the original SSG his base form after absorbing it.
SSG IS his base form now.
And saying Beerus and Whis can defeat Omni-King is about as dishonest has it gets in this fandom.
Toriyama also even said, while comparing Goku, Beerus, and Whis, “Goku is a 6, Beerus is a 10, and Whis is a 15” and that doesn’t have any plans for making Goku stronger than Beerus.
If the the person who created Dragon Ball says Goku is weaker than Beerus, then Goku IS weaker than Beerus.
Instead of creating your own facts, you should try using the ones in the show for ACTUAL information.
I think you’re falling for the hype again. Remember, the cosmic deities want you to think that they’re as powerful as they say. The Omni-King isn’t very strong at all.
Golden Frieza’s power level in itself was a plot hole and Saiyans get stronger a lot faster than him. If Frieza had used the extra time to get stronger, Goku would have widened the gap. I think you’re misinterpreting the SSG is base form now comment. Just think of it as a zenkai boost. Goku’s normal form is now as strong as Saiyan God so when he goes SSJ1 it is like God mode X 50, SSJ2 is around 3X that and then add another 4X for even more power. It’s why he’s so crazy strong.
Toriyama’s interview is also old. Goku has grown far above Beerus and Whis. Remember that Super Saiyan increases your power 50X so Goku’s power level would be at least a 30 and likely much higher than that. Also, writers do get things wrong sometimes. Remember that Dragon Ball Super is one of the most inaccurate shows of all time with more power level plot holes than a bowl of swiss cheese. Next thing you know, the show will try to have Master Roshi defeating full fledged Frieza soldiers or make Piccolo relevant again by adding him into the tourney…
Actually, the writers don’t get ANYTHING wrong if they are the ones creating the story. If that were the case, then all the other events in the Dragon Ball continuity can be classified as being equally invalid.
Also, blaming events that dissatisfy you on plot hacks and plot holes is not only a low blow–but it also shows how stubborn you are to accepting how the actual script is written.
Dragon Ball Super is not some Tumblr fan-fiction that can be ragged on for being inaccurate to the source material, seen as how it IS the source material.
Besides, after Resurrection F and DBS, I think it gave us more insight on how powerful Frieza’s race really is. From what I can see, Frieza’s race appears to be more powerful than the saiyans in that, not only does his philology offer him the power to transform, but also that he has a transformation similar to that of a super saiyan.
Unlike saiyans, Frieza’s race offers him the power to survive exploding planets without the use of the golden form, thus placing the race above saiyans in terms of durability.
As for the whole golden form being the equivalent of super saiyan for Frieza’s race, it did show to possess the power to surpass super saiyan blue had it not been for Frieza’s arrogance.
As revealed in both the show and the movie, Frieza would have had the edge if he had just let is body adjust to the experience like the super saiyan transformation.
However, SSB Kio Ken would have definitely given Goku an edge if he made sure Golden Frieza doesn’t recover.
Even if the same logic for a super saiyan is applied to a super saiyan blue, the transformation is still inefficient due to how much stamina it takes away with each transformation. Therefore meaning that this transformation is more confidential and would force Goku to use the power sparingly.
In any event, instead of getting side tracked with more of this Dragon Ball Fandom trash, let’s get back to discussing why the Beyonder has feats that put him above Goku’s power.
It’s because Toriyama was out of the loop for so long and then tried to take the reins once more. As a result, Super’s been a complete mess when it comes to power levels. At this point, I consider myself to be a premiere expert on DBZ lore. Still, we can head back to the Beyonder part. Should I link some scans of Goku shooting off the Kamehameha? Although, it sounds like you’ve read or watched DBZ already so you may not really need any more scans.
However, before we go into anything else, why do you think the Omni-King isn’t that strong?
He’s basically a One Above All type. He can only fight well within the hype of others by pointing and destroying stuff, but he can’t actually fight. That’s why someone like Frieza could take him down. I somehow think we’ll never see a fight scene with him which will further prove my point
Well, I’ve been into Dragon Ball for quite some time, though I’m still not convinced. Though if I can’t convince you that the Beyonder is stronger than Goku, then I guess this battle will dictate who can outlast whom.
Y’see, as strong and as fast as Goku is, he’s still a mortal that needs to eat, sleep, and catch a breather after fights.
However, because the Beyonder is a ageless multi-dimensional cosmic being of pure energy, he doesn’t really have lungs or inner organs seen as how his body is a physical projection of mass capable of offering him limitless power.
As a result, the Beyonder can literally fight for until the end of time, which is quite trouble some for a being that has such an insatiable appetite.
Speed blitzing the Beyonder (even though he can be everywhere at once) would only aggravate him to the point of destroying Goku’s universe out of anger.
His durability is also greater when you compare the hits both combatants have channeled and withstood, thus meaning he can proceed with this complete event collapse uninterrupted.
Even if the Goku somehow miraculously destroys the Beyonder, his shapeshifting and access to limitless energy power allows him to recover from “death” indefinitely.
Based on what I’ve seen from their accomplishments, regardless of Goku’s combat skills, it doesn’t really matter against a character who can cover more ground than he can run/fly through.
I think you need to rewatch DBZ again. Now, Goku may need to eat and all that, but not for quite a long while and Beyonder wouldn’t last that long. He can’t hope to stand up to Goku’s overwhelming power in this round. Goku is completely on a different level and Beyonder’s stamina isn’t indefinite.
Sorry for the grammar errors.
Whenever I edit my own text, I often forget to change the tense of my words after changing consonants.
Never mind, I was right before ( -_-)
Actually, since the Beyonder’s body is just a physical projection he can change at will, he doesn’t have stamina.
He’s basically a shape-shifting drone capable of choosing its appearance effortlessly. Because of this, he has no organs that can suffer from fatigue.
The only difference is that the Beyonder’s body is composed of limitless stores of energy rather than more delicate steel or titanium.
In summary, the Beyonder’s “body” is made of vast cosmic energy instead of biomass.
Every being does have stamina though. Same with regeneration, it’s never infinite. Goku just needs to hit the Beyonder a few times and the cosmic being will be laid down and out. He simply wouldn’t be able to endure the blows. Think of it like punching a punching bag until it starts to lose its defense
I think you’re misunderstanding what I’m telling you.
The Beyonder’s body isn’t like Goku’s.
It is a constructed projected from his Beyond-Realm that takes the form of whatever he can think of.
With such a versatile body, he’s not restricted to having a singular physique, height, or gender like Goku.
Where as a regular body is made of bone, tissue, blood, and organs, the Beyonder’s body is a cosmic energy construct made to LOOK like a person. In actuality, the Beyonder’s entire composition is energy he can reshaped at will.
He’s basically energy energy capable of cognitive thinking.
Does this explanation make more sense?
Thing is, it still functions just like a body. Goku’s hits will still deal massive damage to the Beyonder and the cosmic being will have no choice, but to fall against Goku’s overwhelming power. Honestly, it’s not that he wants to be defeated by Goku, but that he’ll have no choice. Bring on your energy constructs or reality warping powers. It makes no difference to Goku, the hero of all heroes.
How does one hurt energy?
With enough force. You just have to hit the Beyonder hard enough or wrap energy around your fists to do some real damage
So…you’re telling someone can KILL ENERGY by punching it really…really hard?
So Goku can DESTROY energy now?
Really anyone can though. You just need to hit hard enough or surround your blows with more energy
I have yet to see that.
So, do you then believe that energy beings are completely impervious to physical attacks?
What I’m trying to say is, I’ve seen Goku destroy actual energy.
Okay, so that helps the case for him winning the match then right?
What I meant say:
I have never seen Goku destroy actual energy
Oh, that definitely changes things then. Just think about it conceptually
Sorry but we can’t give Goku feats based on potential alone.
Of course, but I’m saying that energy isn’t an absolute defense against anyone of Gokus level
I need scans in order to verify this.
Gotcha, I’ll look for some when I get back to the desktop
Besides, even if Goku does “Kill” the Beyonder, he’ll just reform himself.
Yes, but keep in mind that he will lose stamina each time
Energy doesn’t have stamina
Everything that’s living has stamina
You do realize the Beyonder has no organs that can tire out or generate fatigue right?
It doesn’t matter. All living beings have stamina and will ultimately tire out. It’s something that no character can avoid.
It’s never made him tired before.
If anything, shape-shifting is one of the easiest abilities inherited by the Beyonder.
That, and controlling bacteria.
Well, shape shifting itself won’t make him tired, but taking a beating from Goku will have that effect. Goku’s blows will hit a little too close to home and no being can endure such an onslaught for very long
Y’know I’ve done some more research and apparently all of the “harm” that was done to the Beyonder was due to him taking on a physical form after meeting the Molecule Man.
If all characters are given the liberty to use the full extent of their power, does that mean the Beyonder gets to fight in the form he originally took whilst in his Beyond Realm?
I dunno. Some of the rules are a little “iffy” in on my end.
Beyonder could fight in that form, but why would he want to? His physical form is definitely the best one that he’s got with all of his good combat feats coming from it. Choosing to use his astral form or some other special ability would certainly not be in his best interest. Which rules are kind of iffy?
Really? With the durability feats of the Beyonder, I doubt he would be affected by Goku’s punches. And even if he were to, the Beyonder could just regenerate himself with his shape shifting abilities every single time he takes damage. In the comics, his regeneration was literally instantaneous.
That being said, in the midst of the battle he could just flood Goku’s body with various forms of harmful bacteria until he just dies of some horrible composite disease.
Now that I think of it, the Beyonder has displayed great reflexes in the past. He was able to catch Northstar, a being capable of flying at the speed of light, with little to no effort and was still able to best the rest of Alpha Flight.
That being said, speed doesn’t really amount to much if you can’t escape an attacks blast radius. With Goku being restricted in his own native universe, I can’t guarantee Goku will survive a universe ending attack.
The regeneration would only last for so long though. He wouldn’t have the stamina needed to keep it up long enough. Goku’s Super Saiyan aura would fry any bacteria that Beyonder sends his way. His Kamehameha would also block any universe busting attacks that the Beyonder tried to send his way. That’s why I can’t really see him losing this round. Goku’s got the edge in speed and power. He would come at Beyonder from all sides with his punches and energy attacks
Since when does the Beyonder or anyone need stamina in order to regenerate?
Since when does Goku’s aura fry bacteria?
Since when can Goku block universal attacks? He barely managed to hold his own against world ending attacks.
I feel as though you are just making stuff up now.
That’s just how regeneration works. It uses up a little of your energy/stamina. It varies on the series of course, but whether it be ki, stamina, energy, chakra, or something else, it does hamper the individual. After all, regen could be infinite otherwise and that definitely wouldn’t make sense.
Aura can always stop stuff. It just blocks anything from the user which is why it’s one of the most important things to have in all of media.
Goku’s Kamehameha can really block just about any incoming attack. There’s nothing that the Beyonder has up his sleeve that can get past this energy blast. Remember, Goku is the 3rd strongest being in all of media. His power is crazy!
1. Regeneration isn’t something that drains peoples energy.
In fact, there are heroes in marvel that not only haphazardly throw themselves into life threatening situations knowing that they will recover, but also go through a great deal of trouble trying to kill THEMSELVES and ultimately failing at each turn.
2.Also, I have never seen Goku’s aura help him recover from diseases. I need proof of this.
3. Goku’s kamehameha is not an absolute power that can destroy anything. There are beings who have been able to block or withstand its power before, including Goku himself. Besides, even if Goku could destroy universes with a kamehameha, trying to charge one that powerful would leave him out in the open for too long.
4. Just because you say Goku is the third strongest in all of of media does not make it true.
It definitely does. Their body will start to regenerate slower and they simply can’t keep on doing it. Deadpool and Wolverine have a hard time bumping themselves off sometimes, but they simply didn’t try hard enough. After all, they’ve been destroyed many times in the past.
2. It’s not a Goku thing, but just an aura thing. The bacteria would never be able to get near him.
3. Charging isn’t very long and if Beyonder were to initiate an attack, Goku would be able to quickly counter it. It can’t destroy everything as Bass has a cloak which can block it, but it is very close to an absolute power. Goku is simply someone that you do not want to mess with.
4. True, but the feats speak for themselves
Do you have proof of this weakness fir regeneration>
Do you have proof of a ki aura capable of negating diseases?
Do you have proof of any of your accusations?
Sure, look at Piccolo, Cell or Buu. They always lose some energy for it.
Yes, heat affects bacteria and energy has been shown to repel air and energy. Bacteria can’t travel if there’s no way to travel.
Look up Goku vs Android 19 and you’ll get the idea. Goku can take a pounding, but he always gets back up
1. Just because characters like Piccolo or Buu have weaknesses doesn’t mean characters outside of their media have to share those weaknesses as well. The fundamentals of Dragon Ball do not apply everywhere.
2. If there is no REAL evidence of ki auras blocking diseases, then speculation doesn’t really amount to anything.
3. Didn’t Goku retreat during his battle with Android 19 on account of the heart virus? Actually, from what I recall, he was carried back screaming bloody murder.
1. Yes, it was just an example. There are characters from other titles who face this same cost and it’s just something that is attributed to regeneration in general. Unless you mean to tell me that regeneration is infinite with no drawbacks then this also makes logical sense.
2. How can a disease be transmitted if the aura is pushing everything away? That includes wind and the disease will just land on Beyonder if anything.
3. Yes, Goku was humiliated in that fight. Android 19 knocked the living daylights out of him with a few good moves. It was the most epic fight in all of DBZ and it showed that Goku could take a pounding
1. Yes, regeneration in Marvel has shown to be far less energy consuming, especially for characters like Wolverine, Deadpool, hulk, or Thanos.
Unlike DBZ, their regenerative abilities repair broken damage automatically similarly to the basic functions that make the body functions. Regeneration for them takes about as much effort bleeding.
2. Yes, their ki auras were able to push back the wind and whatnot, but those were threats outside their bodies. By contrast, there is already bacteria in the body. The Beyonder could just trans-mutate the already present bacteria in Goku’s body to make it harmful.
Besides, if warding of a disease was that easy, why wasn’t Goku able to get rid of the virus that damaging his heart?
3. That battle was actually humiliating for Goku.
Though he has had some memorable battles with foes (some of which he only defeated with help), he has also shown to have the pain threshold of a baby compared to Marvel’s characters.
I mean, Doctor Doom (a mortal mind you) was tortured in literal HELL and he didn’t let out a single scream, whereas Goku starts yelling at the top of his lungs while a foot punctures his wound. By comparison, Goku’s situation wold be like getting a splinter on your pinkie finger.
1. Still takes effort though and the regenerative factor does slow down after it has been overexerted. You can’t keep spamming it and expect the same level of recovery.
2. Once again, transmutation like that is on the iffy side. You could then make the argument that he makes Goku’s blood cells turn into bricks or something and then he would die. Beyonder can shoot bacteria at Goku, but he can’t just make it appear inside of Goku.
3. It was humiliating, but it was also amazing. I like how Goku never gave up no matter how bad the situation. That’s why he’s such a legendary hero. His pain tolerance is pretty good. Dr. Doom may not have yelled there, but he’s yelled plenty of times in the cartoons.
While Wolverine’s or Hulk healing factors are questionable, Thanos and Deadpool have a healing factor that is superior in ever aspect, especially if we are comparing them to DBZ.
Not only does their healing factor repair damage without any effort whatsoever, they are healed immediately within seconds or less. Whether it’s limb amputation, decapitation, or disintegration, they have been able to heal from anything without trying at all, whereas the regenerative healing factors in Dragon Ball are flawed due to them requiring a great deal of effort.
*This is one of the reasons why a great deal of Marvel’s characters pose a great threat against DBZ’s.
And seen as how the Beyonder is superior to them in every aspect, including speed, strength, durability, and intelligence, this applies to him to a greater extent.
But, I think you misunderstand the Beyonder’s big role.
Where there are numerous powerful beings in existence, the Beyonder has served as the one that could best all of the effortlessly. Unlike other beings, there is absolutely no limit to what the Beyonder can do.
If he wants Goku’s blood to turn into bricks, then it will happen.
If he wants to turn Goku into a golden statue, the it will happen.
If he wants to remove all the water in Goku’s body, it will happen.
Of all the beings in Marvel’s continuity (not including the creators), the Beyonder is the only truly omnipotent entity in the continuity.
I prefer to uses information from the original comic source when evaluating characters like Doom. The original source is the best source in my opinion.
On a side note, during his battle with Android 19, he didn’t really have any other choice other than to give up and let Vegeta take over
*Again, needing help from others in order beat his enemies.
There was also his fight with Beerus where he blatantly said he gave up after realizing Beerus’ strength.
But, in the end, I think what makes Goku great is the fact that he is a good sport in a fight. Win or lose, its ultimately the enjoyment and thrill of the fight that makes it worth fighting.
I mean, if Goku were the strongest of them all, things in Dragon Ball would be much more lackluster with the lack of the thrill you get wondering if and how your hero icon will make it.
Characters like Saitama and the Beyonder are prime examples of that.
That extra layer of suspense is what makes shows like Dragon Ball memorable.
Marvel healing factors are good when its plot convenient but get a little dicey otherwise. Not to mention, they still won’t help much against physical punishment from these DBZ all stars or a good ole fashioned Kamehameha wave.
Goku possibly could have beaten Android 19, but he wasn’t given a choice. I’m sure he would have loved to take the win. Personally, I think Goku’s a good character because he is the strongest. It’s fun to root for a guy when you know that he’s always going to win. It’s like Ryoma from Prince of Tennis. The drama is seeing if the opponent will even get remotely close to winning. Now, the Beyonder is fairly decent, but he doesn’t have the same level of mystery and hype surrounding him. Not to mention that Goku is just crazy strong. I think Beyonder is probably Top 10 in Marvel, but once again…you just can’t bring him into anime world and hope to get too far. Anime characters are just a lot stronger than comic book counterparts in general.
In what way would Thanos or Deadpool be put in a dicey situation with their healing factors?
However, I still have to disagree.
Goku has always been one of my favorite characters because of his heroic persona rather than only having favor to him in terms of strength.
Y’see, Goku’s attitude focuses an becoming greater than he already is (such is the pursuit of mankind). With each foe he realizes there is still much he has yet to learn and discover about himself, which ultimately allows him to build strength and character. The reason why Goku is great is due to his determination to surpass beyond what he currently is.
By contrast, the mysterious Beyonder has never had limits he’s needed to surpass in the first place. Rather than serving as a symbol of evolution, he being that has already has evolved to the point of perfection. Unlike Goku, he does not have a layer of humanity to make him more empathetic among the audience and is ultimately boring due to his lack of imperfections.
In summary, Goku is great because he is motivated by the stronger enemies he faces and uses that motivation to surpass the weaknesses he discovers about himself, while the Beyonder is an entity who has no limits or weaknesses that he needs to surpass in the first place.
I mean, while excluding his deliberate acts of making himself vulnerable in his quest for understanding mortality, was there ever a point when the Beyonder weakened by an opposing threat?
They wouldn’t be able to reconstitute themselves after getting hit by the Kamehameha.
Well, I guess we all like Goku for different reasons. I suppose it’s still cool as long as you like him. For me the invincible power part is crucial though. I don’t think I could like him as much if he wasn’t the best although he’d still be fine as long as he’s really strong overall
Hulk survived being disintegrated before, and he’s not even the most powerful or durable character in Marvel comic any more.
In fact, that point was made clear when the Beyonder bested him in battle.
In any event, Goku is still limited in many different ways. As shown before, his mortality can be easily exploited when facing an omnipotent and omnifarious alien.
Being disintegrated by the Kamehameha is a whole other thing though. Even Majin Buu couldn’t come back from that. If you mean from Super, keep in mind that I’ve seen fanfics written by kids that had a better understanding of the power levels. Goku takes everyone down, whether they be Majins or Androids. His mortality is a strength if anything since he fights very cautiously
Like I said before, regenerative powers in Marvel have shown to be superior to that of DBZ.
Besides, Buu was only defeated for good after being beaten with the spirit bomb–a technique that only works on evil.
Also, the only reason childish fan fictions are seen on your side as more accurate is due to the fact that they over-exaggerate characters rather than applying logic.
Even if that’s the case, it doesn’t change the fact that nobody can take a Kamehameha to the face and live to tell about it. The attack’s just too powerful if you ask me.
Nah, it’s because the fanfics are legit. These fans really know their stuff and it makes sense. Fans tend to know more than the creators about the characters most of the time. They have an insider’s point of view that the creator just can’t obtain on his/her own.
Also, Goku never beat any androids.
Vegeta took care of 19, Piccolo was able to match 17, and Gohan was the only one who was able to beat Cell at the time.
When you think about it, after the original Dragon Ball, Goku never really beat anybody on his own!
Don’t forget that Goku took down 13 though. Goku was also handing it to Cell in GT when they had their hyped rematch. On his own Goku’s beaten many foes. Even if we take out the movies and GT (Why would we want too though?) then there’s still poor Yakon. He never stood a chance to be honest.
Hasn’t Goku died three times?
I think the greatest hero of the DBZ franchise is Shenron, seen as how he is their last ditch effort in face of almost certain death (yes, I am including all versions).
Yes, but that’s always because he’s a nice guy. He dies to help the others when he could have won otherwise. Shenron is pretty cool though. I didn’t like how he got nervous a few times and was offed by King Piccolo once, but he did live up to the hype when the 7 Legendary Shenrons showed up. Omega Shenron was pretty great
Besides, several people have survived the Kamehameha before. It’s not some “Avada Kadavera” that can remove a person’s life force. Its just like Vegeta’s final flash, Piccolo’s special beam cannon, or Tien’s tri-beam.
In any event, if you don’t want to trust the people who created Goku and therefore know more about him, then we are going to scale Goku’s Godly power in addition to the Kaio Ken and his Kamehameha by using something not even you can deny has absolute importance:
By addressing the only times power levels mattered in DB-DBZ, I am going to multiply Goku’s confirmed super saiyan power level of 150,000,000 and Roshi’s power level used to destroy the moon in order to verify Goku’s maximum power level. By knowing these two facts, I can decipher what Goku’s maximum destructive capacity.
Therefore, I will not be using DBS scaling. I instead, I will address this with information provided during DBZ.
Kamehameha is better than Avada because it’s a beam of concentrated energy that is completely lethal. How can you hope to avoid such a powerful attack, much less endure it.
The numbers get hazy though because there are so many variables. You have to multiply the 150 million by 3 for Super Saiyan 2 and then another 4 for SSJ3. Then you start at base again due to zenkai boosts so you multiply that by 50 then by 3 then by 4 and then you get to God Mode so another 2-3 and then another 50 for God SSJ and then you can go up to Kaio Ken 10-50 so another multiplier. Don’t forget that we’ve also got other zenkai boosts along the way and Goku’s rumored to be getting a new form in the next arc. His power level is crazy
But what if SSG works the same way as fusion?
What do you mean?
As we know, in Dragon Ball it is possible to give others energy to enhance their powers against stronger foes. In such an instance, Goku needed the collective power of Trunks, Gohan, Piccolo, and Vegeta coursing through his body in order to beat Broly in ONE PUNCH. The only difference is that fusion combines every aspect of their beings into one.
It is possible that the same principle was used, seen as how Goku was able to gain a great boost in power despite not reaching god form.
Therefore, if we were to decipher Goku’s godly power by uniting the powers of saiyans, we could theoretically find out how strong he is after the ritual.
But hey, that’s just a theory.
That one seems like a stretch, but it’ll be fun to see what numbers come out of that
Well, in a way, it makes sense.
In both instances, all of their energy was transferred into Goku’s body to make him stronger.
From what I know, Master Roshi was able to destroy the moon with a kamehameha at a power level of 130. Because the earth is 100 times larger than the moon, the required power level for destroying earth would be 13,000. This would explain how Vegeta was able to destroy a planet in DBZ at a power level of 18,000.
It’s a stretch. But with the ridiculous theories being developed by other less consistent fans and Super being even less helpful in scaling power levels, this is the best thing I can come up with to provide an accurate number for Goku’s max power.
Right, but Vegeta unlocked it on his own and Goku’s state became his normal mode eventually with additional zenkai boosts later on. It’s not too far fetched though that the multiplication would be from all of the Saiyans in the circle, in which case it would be insane though. That’s like 100000 million X 10000 million by this point.
I’m always up for more theories so crunch the numbers and tell me what you got.
Before I do, do you want to just multiply Goku’s power level by six or should we add all the power levels of the saiyans present during the ritual?
I guess at that point we’d have to multiply it by at least 6-10 from his SSJ3 level since Bills had to go all out to keep up with him at that point.
Wasn’t Goku just a standard super saiyan at the time?
Also, from what I remember, Beerus wasn’t using his full power.
But hey, I’m skeptical with ALL of the characters in Dragon Ball that claims to be limiting their full power.
I always though they made those comments for some type of “cop-out” in order to add suspense.
Well, each Super Saiyan form multiplies from the former. SSJ is 50X base. SSJ2 is 3X SSJ1. SSJ3 is 4X SSJ2. So then God form would be around 10-100X SSJ3 and then SSJG would be 50X that.
The characters are usually pretty legit though. They just have that much power
Alright, based on those numbers, I am going to divide that by 13,000 (the power level requirement fro destroying planets) multiplied by 333,000 (how many times larger a sun is to earth) in order to see how many solar systems Goku can destroy.
Sounds good 🙂
Before I crunch the numbers, can we both agree to remain respectful and accept whatever the outcome may be?
We’ll definitely remain respectful, but I doubt I can accept the numbers. We are using a whole lot of speculation here so the number crunching is just for fun. It’s not really going to give us an accurate picture of Goku’s strength or anything like that
Ok. But you should keep in mind that I’m being very generous with scaling. By doing this, I am also excluding the fact that there are suns that are larger than Earth’s and the fact that I am not including the diameter of an entire solar system.
Basically, whatever the outcome is, it will be greater than what it should be.
But because this scaling does not apply to Dragon Ball physics (at least to my knowledge), there is still a great deal of ground we can’t cover.
I find that hard to picture, but it’ll still be interesting to see what you come up with. Personally, I’d say that Goku’s power level is nigh infinite with all of the zenkai boosts and power ups upon power ups. It’s why he is such a formidbale threat
Your illogical assumptions are still null and void in the face of the logic I, as well as other posters, have thrown at you.
In any event, here are the results:
ssj = 150,000,000
ssj2 = 150,000,000 x 3 = 450,000,000
ssj3 = 450,000,000 x 4 = 1,800,000,000
ssg = 1,800,000,000 x 100 = 180,000,000,000
ssb = 180,000,000,000 x 50 = 900,000,000,000
(the power level requirement fro destroying planets) x (how many times larger a sun is to earth)
13,000 x 333,000 = 4,329,000,000
Now, let’s see how many solar systems Goku can destroy.
900,000,000,000/4,329,000,000 = 207,900,208
Based on YOUR interpretation of the SSB’s power level, Goku can destroy as ,many as 207,900,208 solar systems.
You made a lot of mistakes here though. Dragon Ball Super made the same assumptions. Remember that Goku SSJ1 was only 150 million when he first learned it. He grew vastly in strength by the end and his base form at the end of Z is significantly stronger than his old SSJ and I dare say SSJ2. Still, it’s good to know that he can destroy well over 200 million solar systems. We’d just need to multiply that by a few more numbers
Then by all means, multiply those numbers.
Right, but we don’t know exactly how much multipliers to do. Some say that Goku at the end of Z base is equal to SSJ3, but what is SSJ3? The zenkai boosts had already happened several times as well as normal training and the training in the chamber. It’s why I just settle for nigh invincible
If that’s the case, then why has Goku needed help with so many of his battles. If his zenkai boost were infinite, he would have been a god years ago with beatings and deaths he’s had to deal with.
Can we PLEASE just accept the fact that Goku is a universe buster at best and get on with it.
It’s because the villains are just that strong. Not to mention that Goku usually ends up beating everyone. He handled Buu and Frieza with ease. He just looks bad in Super thanks to lazy writing
He looked bad in DBZ when he needed his son and the rest of the universe to help him defeat the big threats that planned to bring about death and destruction. Goku would be nowhere near where he is now if his friends decided not to step in.
That’s like saying that Superman is weak because he’s saved every other Friday. It’s what Goku became in the end that counts…an unbeatable monster!
And yet he still has yet to face the attacks they Beyonder has displayed.
The reason I chose the Beyonder as the victor is due to the fact that Goku isn’t prepared for what the Beyonder is capable of.
Trust me, Goku can easily get past anything that the Beyonder can dish out. That being said I do understand your reasoning. Mine is that the Beyonder simply doesn’t have the physical stats needed to challenge someone like Goku
And my reasoning is that the Beyonder has more than what Goku can dish out.
He can just separate his molecules and end the fight there.
He can turn Goku into gold and melt him.
He can alter Goku’s mind and mend it to his will
He can do literally anything. He is omnipotent.
And with omnipotence, you are also gifted with omnipresence.
You say Goku is faster than the Beyonder, when the Beyonder doesn’t even need to try to move in order to be where Goku is. Being omnipresent not only means that you are everywhere at once. It also means that you are always there no matter where you are.
That ,means that the while the Beyonder is 10 feet away from Goku sight line, he can also be 10,000 light-years away from him SIMULTANEOUSLY.
And that’s not hype.
That actually happened in The Incredible Hulk Volume 2 issue #312 when he explored the layers of reality with ease.
You can’t get faster than that.
And even IF Goku does destroy him, he can just reform his body the same way he reformed it during New Avengers Illuminati volume 2 issue #3 when he turned himself to ash and reformed himself during the aftermath.
And, since regenerative abilities are not weak and energy consuming like the ones in Dragon Ball, he along with other powerful marvel characters can do this indefinitely.
Matter manipulation, psychic powers, omnipresence, indefinite regeneration, and omnipotence combined equals a crushing defeat for those unfortunate enough to challenge him.
All right, let me set my side of the table now. Goku’s immune to mind control as we saw Vegeta repel Babidi. Villains can try all of their little Jedi mind tricks, but they simply won’t be of any use. The Beyonder can’t transform Goku into gold if Goku doesn’t want it to be so. He’ll just power up and remind the world why they call him Goku.
Goku is a lot faster than Beyonder. Beyonder can be everywhere at once if he likes, but that will just be a liability since Goku can then blast a piece of the ground and deal devastating damage to the guy. Beyonder can’t handle that kind of firepower. He had trouble with a guy like the Molecule Man, Goku’s Kamehameha would fry him quite quickly.
Beyonder can’t reform indefinitely. He’ll exhaust his energy supply real fast and that’ll be game over for him. Now, here’s why Goku wins. His power level is nigh infinite and his speed is true insanity. All Goku needs is a few good combos and a Kamehameha for luck. After that, it’s good games to all of his opponents. They simply won’t be able to stop him!
However, you fail to see various flaws in you assumptions.
1. Though Babidi’s magic was resisted by Vegeta, how does that also apply to Goku. After spending much time contemplating over the various aspects of their personalities, I remembered something important.
GOKU IS NOT VEGETA!
Y’see Goku and Vegeta may share the same transformations and heritage, but that does not mean they are always one in the same. Goku and Vegeta have different fighting styles and attacks that differentiate them from one another. They’re both unique in their own way.
Which is why we can’t assume that Goku possesses the same defense against mind control just because Vegeta did it.
And if Goku has never shown to resist it, he can’t resist it.
2. Even if Goku is resistant to mind control it still doesn’t matter. You say Goku’s “will power” can let him resist against anything in spite of the fact that he has never shown to resist what I have presented to you.
I mean, resisting being turned into a gold statue or having his molecules separated?
When has Goku resisted something like that?
When has ANYONE resisted something like that?
Goku has never withstood molecular manipulation or being turned into a statue. You can’t just edit powers for him if he has never shown them.
The Beyonder could turn Goku’s blood into steam, his internal organs into water,or his entire body into a pile of minced meat simply due to fact that Goku is made of matter.
3. Once again, you are saying the Beyonder will run out of energy even after I have told you that regenerative abilities of the strongest beings in Marvel have never needed to regenerate their limbs at the expense of their stamina/energy.
Just because the characters in DBZ have limits to their self-healing doesn’t mean you have to pass them along to other characters.
4. NEVER has the Beyonder’s omnipresence meant that he takes damage from his surroundings. During numerous instances of galactic, universal, and multiversal damage, he was not in anyway injured in the process.
For instance, when he destroyed galaxies and other civilizations by merely standing in place, he sustained not damage or pain.
Therefore, Goku would do absolutely nothing to him by destroying the matter around him.
However, if you can give me scans of Goku resisting being turned into a statue, mind controlled, or having his molecules manipulated, then I might change my mind.
My arguments have no flaws….
Trust me, they can both resist it. It’s not because of personality, but because they’re Saiyans. Remember, Broly was also shown to be immune to mind control. It’s just something that any strong Saiyan can do because they’re that good.
2. Those kinds of powers only work well in the movies. You can’t just warp something into Goku’s bloodstream or make him die with a snap of the fingers. Goku’s a character who fights until the last man. You can’t write him out of the equation because then there would be no fight. These cosmic beings may have their fancy tricks and all, but Goku just relies on his true power.
3. All characters have limits to self healing and there are no exceptions to that rule. It always takes a lot of energy and the stronger the impact, the more energy is will take away. Beyonder won’t be able to reconstitute himself after getting run over by the Kamehameha wave. The attack is simply too devastating and amazingly powerful in the end.
4. Then he’s not omnipresent. You destroyed your own argument.
I can do you one better. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpRysAo5pU0
1. If that’s the case, then why did Vegeta succumb to Baby’s possession. Could his will power not just defend himself against Baby while he was in his Body?
2. You say that he can’t when he obviously can.
Goku has never shown defense against these powers and you have yet to provide proof suggesting he can.
Will power can’t protect against everything.
3. No. Never has the Beyonder’s healing taken away energy.
The likes of the Beyonder, Thanos, and Deadpool have all been able to return from just about anything lethal to their bodies without losing energy.
Energy consumption as result of regeneration does not apply to everyone y’know.
4. Omnipresence means you can be everywhere.
It doesn’t mean you have to feel everything.
Yes, the Beyonder can sense the inner emotions of others from a great distance via telepathy, but physical pain does not impact him in this regard.
Also, you just gave me link to a reminder of a battle where Goku was most vulnerable.
1. Well keep in mind that DBGT made a lot of mistakes. Goku running from energy guns was pretty iffy and the series just made a lot of mistakes in general. I do like the series quite a bit, but the whole Vegeta thing made no sense.
2. Those powers just don’t make any sense. You can’t just materialize something inside of someone, it’s just not done.
3. Healing does take energy. They can’t keep it up and start to tire. It gets worse based on the strength of the attack and Goku is as tough as anyone gets.
4. Nah, you can’t have it both ways. If you’re everywhere, then you’re also going to feel all pain and Beyonder would get wrecked really quickly.
It was still a really cool moment though. One of the all time legends
Therefore, YOU are the one who destroyed their own argument.
I dunno about that
…*destroyed your own argument
Forgive my grammar mistake.
Either way, facts conquers your hype.
Nothing conquers hype
1. So you’re allowed to make references about GT, but I’m not when they contradict your hype?
2. Just because those powers don’t make sense to you, doesn’t make them any less powerful.
3. When has the Beyonder ever needed energy for something so simple as regenerating?
4. You obviously never bothered to look up the definition of omnipresence.
1. Nah, we can look at GT of course. I definitely think it’s worth looking into. I’d just say that the Baby thing is an anomaly that didn’t make any sense.
2. It’s just a power that doesn’t work. It just won’t work on a mighty Super Saiyan like Goku.
3. Because regenerating takes energy.
4. I just don’t need it. If you’re everywhere, then you’re everywhere. Otherwise it’s just hype.
1. Do you deny everything that shows the vulnerability of all your fighters. If so, then you should realize that revealing points of tension with powerful characters raises the stakes. The who routine of Dragon Ball is to reveal a character that Goku has to beat by training harder and harder each time. Sometimes he can do it on his own and sometimes he needs help. If Goku were invincible beyond all measure then there would be no point in him trying to train.
2. You still haven’t shown scans of him having defense against this.
3. No it doesn’t.
4. You really need to do some research. Omnipresence allows one to be everywhere and nowhere at once, but has never caused these problems.
Are you going to provide any scans to disprove my facts or are you going to keep making stuff up.
1. Goku is basically invincible, but only by the end. A new villain shows up who is stronger, but then Goku surpasses him pretty quickly.
2. I could show you a scan of Goku breaking a hole in a dimension, but there is no scan of him resisting such an attack because nobody can do that to Goku.
3. Yes it does
4. That’s just a contradiction. If you’re nowhere, then you’ve lost.
I’ve used most of the good scans already. Do you want me to link the Cell solar system feat again?
1. Goku is not invincible, because he can’t beat Akira.
2. The reason there are no scans of Goku resisting that attack is due to the fact that Goku has never faced this attack. If Goku has never faced a molecule manipulator, then we can’t say he can resist their attacks.
4. I admit that is a contraction.
There are many people who have made that same description and I guess they imprinted on my psyche.
Still, omnipotence means being everywhere but that doesn’t mean the pain of others also transfers to the user physically.
You can’t support these claims without proof.
Plus, the Beyonder destroyed entire galaxies just by being in their presence.
1. Of course he can. Akira’s not so tough. He may play a good game of Go against Hikaru in one of the last volumes of Hikaru No Go, but that’s not enough to beat Goku.
2. Nah, it’s because molecule manipulation just doesn’t make sense. Goku simply wouldn’t stand for it.
3. Majin Buu and Cell.
4. Right, but you can’t have it both ways. If he is everywhere, even if he doesn’t feel the pain, he’ll take the injury. Using his omnipresence ability would be his doom.
Beyonder may have destroyed galaxies, but Cell could take out a solar system and that was very early on in the series. Goku would rock all of their worlds by this point.
1. I’m talking about Akira from the Dragon Ball franchise
2. Molecular Manipulation makes perfect sense.
You can control the molecules in all organic and inorganic matter, thus making it super effective.
Just SAYING Goku won’t stand for it does not amount to anything without evidence.
3. Just because Majain Buu and Cell have mediocre healing factors does not mean EVERYONE in media needs to have them too.
None of the regenerative characters I have listed have never needed to spend all of their energy focusing on healing themselves.
Saying ALL characters in media lose stamina when they regenerate just because Cell and Buu do is like saying ALL characters have insatiable appetites just because saiyans in Dragon Ball do.
4. Is there a scan of this happening to the Beyonder that you can provide?
Also, even with DBZ scaling, this doesn’t put Goku at a multiversal level.
Especially considering even while clashing with Gohan’s Kamehameha wave, it didn’t even destroy the solar system.
1. Oh, that’s even worse though. I think it’d be a close fight between DB Akira and Hikaru No Go Akira, but the latter just seems more physically fit so I’d be betting on him in the long run.
2. It can work on inorganic matter, but not organic. That violates a character’s right to fight.
3. I’m not saying that everyone’s regen abilities are as good as Cell or Buu’s. Many of them are in fact a lot worse. That being said, none of them are infinitely powerful. Even Bass with his amazing regeneration isn’t completely energyless. In the end, you just have to make sure that you don’t let the opponent continually injure you and the problem is that Beyonder can’t prevent this. Goku is simply too strong, determined, and fast. Beyonder will be completely overwhelmed within minutes.
4. No, so I’m guessing that he never actually became omnipresent.
We can’t know that for sure because of how crazy the power levels got. For all we know, Goku’s been multiversal for a while now. As for the beams not destroying the solar system, that’s more thematic effect than anything else. Otherwise Goku’s SSJ3 punch into the ground on Kai’s planet would have destroyed the entire thing. They have to tone down the damage or there wouldn’t be a show.
1. Yeah, you obviously don’t know anything about DB’s Akira.
He was in the comic strip called “Dr. Slump”.
How can you not know him.
2. You have no authority to dictate that.
3. I bet you haven’t even seen any other Marvel character regenerate,
You need to do research on both fighting characters. Otherwise the only person at fault is the person who didn’t care enough to look at the database for both characters.
4. PROVIDE A SCAN!
This “zenkai boost” you refer to can’t be properly determined. Just using speculation in order to make up for information you can’t find is the same as cheating your way into making a stronger character.
Therefore, the only way to determine his strength is to look at the results of his battles. And from the looks of the battles, Goku is at the most a Universal threat.
1. Oh, I know about him all right, but he’s not a fighter. He’s just another overhyped comedy character if I recall correctly and people just assumed that he was really tough for some reason. He has a cool gas mask though.
3. Eh, I’ve read plenty of Marvel comics over the years and no worries, I always do my due diligence for both fighters.
4. Provide a scan of what? I just pointed out the contradiction
The boosts are real though, Toriyama just doesn’t like dwelling on power levels. Keep in mind that we viewers we look at them a lot, but the authors aren’t focusing on that so sometimes they downplay things or don’t think it through.
Oh, and apologizes in regards to that redundancy I left (“most greatest”).
Pardon my incorrect grammer
Beyonder managed to shake up the multiverse.
Heh, I actually read that comic a while back. It was pretty good
Yep, Beyonder could defeat Goku.
I gotta be honest with you man, I don’t even think it’d be close! Goku would end the match with one Kamehameha
How could Goku kill Beyonder? He tanked an attack that destroyed several billion dimensions.
He’d need either the Spirit Bomb or the Kamehameha
Can a Spirit Bomb destroy several billion dimensions? I doubt it.
I could see it pulling it off if it was necessary. If not, the Kamehameha could pull off the job.
DBZ would never beat Marvel. They have too many Omnipotents, reality warpers, galaxy busters, etc.
They don’t have Goku and Vegeta
All if those beings would kill Goku and Vegeta
When was the last time you watched DBZzzzzz?
A few months ago.
You gotta watch it again
Yet they have done nothing to impress me.
That’s surprising to be honest
Nope because I’ve seen better.
Well, that’s true. I did show you scans of Bass after all
Scan? Where? I didn’t see any picture or video.
To which part. The Cell blowing up a Solar System?
You’ve never posted any scans. Irregardless, Beyonder is omnipotent.
What do you mean? I post scans all the time
I don’t remember any scans. Unless your talking about that Cell scan.
Remember when I posted a scan of Bass absorbing Hubstyle?
Nope, but Beyonder still stomps.
He will be stomping in a fit of rage by the time Goku’s done with him!
Goku has better feats than The ”Beyonder”
Hmmm, it would appear as though you don’t have any means of hyping Goku in the face of the evidence I provided about the Beyonder. Could it be that you can’t think of anything Goku can do that surpasses the feats I posted?
Are you still trying to avoid the truth?
Whoops, I’ll admit that I forgot that comment. I’ll go back and take care of it now. There’s always a way to hype Goku, fans have made a profession out of it!
lmao @ that dreager guy overrating goku.
Goku is the best!
Keep in mind that Super’s practically a fan fic with how inaccurate it is
I’m just gonna go out on a limb and say that their advanced alien technology is not something to be trifled with.
I mean, people say it’s a simple ray gun, but what if their is more advanced technology at play here?
I believe that the Beyonder will win, but Goku won’t give him him an easy fight either.
So, let’s start from the beginning – from a quantum physics point of view, the Beyonder is portrayed as the be-all and end-all of the beyond realm, and it is said that our universe is a drop of water in an ocean as compared to the beyond realm. So, technically the Beyonder is an unseen, omnipotent being who has just taken the form of human being to understand human nature. In other words, he is a being of pure cosmic energy, and by the law of conservation of energy, it can neither be created nor be destroyed. Goku, on the other hand is only a human being who has near-infinite powers but still a human and can be destroyed. The Beyonder’s powers on the other hand is millions of times greater than the whole multiverse combined. In other words, the Beyonder can defeat million Goku’s AT A SINGLE DAMN TIME!! Also Goku is vigorously trained , has a vast amount of power and also has defeated a great number of fighters more powerful than him and has more experience than any other fighter in the universe, but that doesn’t even minutely compare to the Beyonder’s powers. He has reality warping powers and can travel at the speed of light as he his a cosmic being. He has the power of the fifth dimension, which is the time altering dimension, and anyone who has access to the fifth dimension, his brain capacity is ideally 100%. By the consciousness theory of quantum physics, anybody with such vast amount of brain capacity will not even have a body, his consciousness will spread so thin that he will be spread across the the entire multiverse, hence the beyond realm. So, in the end, Physics says it all kids!! The Beyonder wins hands-down. Remember, all the Marvel universe heroes + all the Marvel universe villains were required to just TEMPORARILY defeat this guy.
I agree with the fact that Goku is incredibly powerful, but I’m not sure about the rest. Remember, Goku could defeat all of those Marvel characters with ease so it they were able to give Beyonder a defeat, then so can Goku.
From my perspective, when we exclude the TOAA and the Fulcrum, the Beyonder is the only true omnipotent character at his full power.
Also, your explanation does put a lot more into perspective in terms of assessing the Beyonder capabilities. It did seem obvious that he was a multi-dimensional entity when looking at his abilities to change shape and form.
Beyonder wins by SHEER feats:
Goku may not have fancy feats at times, but he gets the job done. If we add up his power level and Kamehameha variations…it’s really no contest by the end!
And what proof do you have his attacks could destroy the multiverse?
Well, Cell was a solar system buster and they’ve all grown crazy strong since then
Seriously? Solar system busting is more impressive than multiverse busting?
God, this is your logic:
No, you’ve been owned.
This is gonna be tough to believe…but I’ve never been owned!
You’ve been owned before.
Yeah right, name one time
The time you thought Bass could beat another Bass… that would mean Bass is NOT the strongest being in all of media. That contradicts him being the “strongest being in all of media.”
Another one, when I asked you to provide a scan of Goku destroying the Omniverse, you didn’t reply.
Eh? There is only one Bass my friend 🙂
When was the latter? I thought I pointed out that he’s never destroyed one, but he totally could if he wanted too
I think it was in “Bass the Strongest Being in all of media.” In one of the comments a guy asked you who would win between two basses.
There is only one omniverse. And also, Goku’s best feat is UNIVERSAL. NOT OMNIVERSAL. Other than that. Most of his battles have only done city-solar system damage at best, which is not impressive compared to many other characters.
It is really impressive. You have to consider the power level, not just the feats
Beyonder causes multiversal-wide instantaneous destruction:
That is pretty impressive
Unlike Cell’s solar system busting…
That was even more impressive to be honest
A solar system busting attack is more impressive than a multiverse busting attack? Okay. I could say a street level being beats a universe level being because what the street level being done is more impressive by your logic.
And the Christian God would destroy Bass as he’s only a fictional character, unless Gid brings him into the real world because God’s truly omnipotent.
Well, mainly because of the context and how it was handled. With the Beyonder it was just slapped in there for kicks while you could actually feel the drama and tension with Cell.
God is real though so he’s not on the blog. Only fictional characters are allowed to fight
Yeah but it’s not about tension. It’s about how much destruction.
I never said God was allowed on your blog. I just said he would defeat Bass.
Right, but I could beat Bass too since he’s not real if you’re gonna go there
1. My point is that Goku’s not invincible.
2. Then my point on molecular manipulation still stands.
3. If you know about both media then why are you pushing the defects of regenerative abilities in DBZ on the ones in Marvel?
4. Sorry, wrong area for number four.
I lost track of the comments and thought it was another list displayed.
What I do want to say is that omnipresence works in the same way it does in the real world. God is everywhere. He isn’t tangibly or visibly present everywhere, yet he can still affect everything in existence either by manipulating the forces of nature or the very forces that keep reality in tact. The same thing was displayed when the Beyonder was in numerous different existential planes at once while sitting comfortably in a chair or when he affected the minds of every being on Earth.
The boosts are very much evident, but we can’t properly calculate them.
However, we could calculate the maximum amount of power Goku can receive from a zenkai boost if we can find out when Goku received the most damage. It was probably early on when power levels were more relevant. Therefore, a more accurate measure can be found there.
1. He’s not invincible as Bass can definitely beat him. That being said, he is the closest thing to it besides Bass as nobody else can beat him. His stats are so far ahead of everyone else’s that you can’t help but cry at how cool the character is. Seriously, it feels bad just to put someone against Goku since you know that they’re doomed.
2. That is like having a time traveler go back in time to destroy the opponent before they fought or a guy with time control stopping the match the instant it starts and destroying the opponent. Stuff like that just doesn’t work.
3. Because that defect works on all of them. Some authors and characters just try to trick you into thinking that they’re all powerful or that their regeneration has no limits, but we know better. Just look at the whole One Above All fiasco.
4. Nah, the ability doesn’t work like that in comics. If the Beyonder is everywhere and nowhere, then he’s nowhere and can’t win. Beyonder can turn himself into an abstract, but then he is absolutely powerless and Goku can sneeze him away. If the Beyonder takes a physical form, then he’s going to get speedblitzed and knocked around. It’s a lose-lose proposition which is why I have to say that he’s doomed at this point.
Even then, is it the charity tank or the shark tank? By that, is the Zenkai Boost a % increase based on his power level or a fixed amount that varies with damage? The series seems to support the former, which makes it even more difficult to measure. I’m sure that if you gave someone 100 hours and paid them to research this, they could probably get a pretty decent measure, but it definitely takes a lot of time and energy. Not to mention that the series contradicts itself with power levels on occasion so even then it’s hard to know what to trust and what not too. I mean, we have to basically discount Dragon Ball Super since the writing is beyond terrible, but at the same time we have to keep in the super forms since they are real now. It’s why most people just try to tune out the power levels in DBZ since it gets so dicey.
And what exactly gives you the right to decide all this?
What gives you the right to decide how much a character can regenerate even when they have survived everything?
What gives you the right dictate what powers characters can an can’t use?
What gives you the right to say the Beyonder’s omnipresence is skewed when it is clearly illustrated as it should be?
Are you so afraid of the characters that aren’t a part of your favorites list that you would go as far as to remove the powers they have you know could end the fight in seconds?
I’m not deciding this, but I just don’t believe anyone else can beat Goku. That is always up for debate of course, but his feats speak for themselves.
Well, we know that regenerating takes energy so you’re gonna get tired the more you regenerate. It’s up for debate how many times it will take, but against someone like Goku, we can definitely say that the Beyonder will be out of energy way before Goku. He can’t regenerate indefinitely.
Well, for the blog it’s in the rules that powers like that are ineffective. It’s why people with telepathy don’t do so well either. Outside of the blog, they’re naturally acceptable and all, but I still find them very suspect.
It’s just more hype that doesn’t actually lead to anything. Many characters are built on hype like Saitama and while some live up to it, others don’t.
I’m only afraid of Bass and I have to see him everyday since he’s my avatar. Beyond that, I just fear my next slice of pizza since there’s always a lot of pressure on it to defeat the slice I had just eaten. Me being afraid of other characters just sounds a little far fetched if you ask me. Especially when most of my favorites are virtually invincible, but not all of them. For example, I love Train Heartnet, but you won’t see me saying that he can bat Superman. One Above All is another story though
And you think the Beyonder doesn’t live up to it?
I…I…I don’t even know how anyone could be this stubborn.
*Sigh*… Okay, I’m gonna be real with you.
I’ve been around your blog and I’ve seen some battles and comments left by you. I won’t go into too many details, but I was both disapointed and befuddled.
The people who come here offer solid evidence of a character’s shortcomings and strengths, yet you either deny it or just insert an empty hype induced comment suggesting a fighter being invincible. Anyone can call a character invincible. It’s only until the facts come in when you are filled with disbelief.
Some tried, yet all failed.
All of them, even with statistics and logic applied that disproved your accusations easily, still made no progresss. Many of their discussions were even more thorough and well executed than mine, and their influenced still remained stagnant.
Yet, I believed I could change that.
But I didn’t. I didn’t resolve anything.
It was like trying tell a viking the world is round or trying to teach a baby trigonometry.
But, I can deal with it knowing the one thing they all figured out when they realized how foolish this was.
You and your blog are based on your opinion.
You say characters have these ratings and are resident against certain attacks, but I have no reason to side with your thoughts when there are others with a far more consistent and sensible explanations to back up their claim.
For whatever reason, you think you know better than everyone else, including the people who know more about both the characters and the media they come from and the ones actually have a viable explanation for their power.
Why is this the case? I don’t know.
Maybe this is all just a joke.
Maybe you just want to create spite for laughs.
Maybe you’re just attracting people by slandering their characters in order to fulfil some sort of publicity stunt.
At this point It doesn’t even matter.
As far as I can tell, I’m just another drop of water in an ocean of more interesting people.
I’m practically nothing, and I’m ok with that.
I had had arguments and backup arguments, but I bet even if I showed you a character who had defense and disabling powers that counteracted their abilities, you’d still say otherwise.
It was a pointless and meaningless journey from the start.
But I guess you can do whatever you want regardless of how ridiculous it may be.
Though proceed knowing that there are hundreds of other people who DO know better.
It doesn’t matter and it never mattered.
I’m an idiot for only realizing that now.
The Beyonder is reasonably strong, but not enough to beat Goku
In the end, it doesn’t really matter what either of us think.
That’s true, it’s all subjective in the end
True. However a subjective argument can be given gravity with the proper support to back it up.
Though, judging by how many scans people posted in these fights, their gravitational pull could be compared to that of a black hole.
Yes, one is allowed to be entitled to their opinion, though opinions can be swayed when it is met with a more sensible explanation.
In fact, if we are being honest, I actually decided to side with Goku as the victor at first.
DBZ was a show that featured characters that could shatter planets and launch energy with enough force to cut a galaxy in half.
I was SURE Goku could win!
However, after taking the time to see the scans displayed and doing research on the characters, I realized I was wrong.
It pained me to admit it, but I was very wrong.
In any event, if I were to weigh writers, publishers, researchers, physics specialists, and a massive majority of people who know more about these characters than I do, there really isn’t much of an argument ONE person can make at that point.
Does that mean I want you to change you list of powerful characters?
Does that mean I want you to change the outcome of all your fights?
Does that mean I want you to change your entire blog?
Does that mean I hate this blog?
It just means that I, as well as a smorgasbord of other people with more knowledge on the fighters disagree.
That’s a shame man, you had the right idea at the start. Goku’s overwhelming power speaks for itself and DBZ is still one of the strongest series out there. They could crush galaxies and have the speed to back it up. Just the other day I was rewatching some of the fights like SSJ3 Goku vs Super Buu and reminding myself of why this series is so legendary. I still am a comic fan as well and keep up with it as best I can, but DBZ is really where it’s at. Goku’s even supposed to be getting a new super form in the anime coming up so that’s going to widen the gap even further between him and everyone else. I’m definitely sure that Goku wins and hopefully the new form will convince more people of this as well.
Though, something has provoked my curiosity.
You said you scaled off Goku’s strength, speed, and energy projection based on scaling.
Can you provide a list that describes how Goku’s transformations and powers have evolved to that point?
I’m wondering if there is actually a system you developed to assess how strong Goku is at this point.
I am also wondering how you reached that conclusion in order to verify if it is accurate enough to meet the source material.
Sure, I could get to work on a list like that. The basic verison is that
Raditz was already moving at super speed. Then Nappa came along as a city buster and was extremely fast. Goku surpassed him by a large margin, then Vegeta surpass him, then Goku, etc, etc. They just kept on rising. I’ll work on a more detailed version tomorrow
Here’s a little more in depth
Raditz (mildly FTL or hypersonic)
Nappa Around 4X greater than Raditz in both stats
Goku Saiyan Saga -Double Nappa
Vegeta Saiyan Saga -Double Goku
Zarbon – higher than Vegeta
Vegeta with zenkai – far greater than Zarbon
Captain Ginyu – far greater than Vegeta
Goku – greater
etc etc. It would take ages to write it all, but the boosts just kept on coming and coming. That’s where the scaling is from, as for just Goku
Goku (Dragon Ball) super fast and at least a city buster
Goku Saiyan Saga – planet buster and FTL
Goku zenkai Namek Over 100,000X stronger
Goku Android Saga after 1 year training, Base is now around SSJ form
Ascended Goku, far stronger
SSJ2 Goku, far stronger
Zenkai, Base is now SSJ2. SSJ1 boost, SSJ2 boost, SSJ3 boost
More Zenkai in Super. SSJG greater than SSJ3. SSJG is now base. SSJ1 Boost. SSJ1 Kaio Ken 10X boost.
Forgive that other redundancy.
(“scaled based on scaling”)
Well, during his fight with Beerus, Goku was able to clash as a super saiyan god with enough physical force do cause tremors and ripples in his universe and beyond. Also, because their bodies remained in tact, this can put Goku as a threat above universal. In fact, even after his god transformation ran out of time, his super saiyan form at that time did exceed that of a super saiyan god.
Now, assuming Goku’s next transformation works in the same way as it would for a regular super saiyan, we can assume Goku’s power is 50x greater as a super saiyan blue. That being said, he still struggled against Golden Frieza in his Golden Form, which had a conformed power level of 100 Quintilian (That’s twenty zeroes!).
Why is all this information important?
Well I’ll tell you.
With these stats we can clearly see that Goku’s body is capable of lifting and destroying objects with the same mass as a galaxy and or universe. And with the power of SSB, this is taken to a greater level.
Does this mean Goku is MULTIversal?
Yes, theoretically, Goku’s striking strength and energy projection could put him at a scale exceeding universal. However, Goku’s ki works like a loaded gun. It has power, but it has a limit to how may bullets it can fire. If he continuously expels energy at a quantity too great, it could result in him needing to recharge.
Why else do you think he has only used a Kamehameha 1-2 times in his toughest battles at the maximum?
He needs to conserve that energy when it is needed most so he doesn’t burn out too quickly in the midst of the excitement.
Its actually a very smart and conservative tactic on Goku’s part! Kudos to him 🙂
Buuuuuut, there are one factors that could jeopardize this tactic: How much energy Goku can expel before he can’t do so anymore.
Y’see, as we’ve learned, Goku’s latest and greatest transformation has a major flaw. The stamina and energy output is very confidential. During Goku’s fight with Hit, Beerus and Whis noticed something very peculiar when Goku transformed; he was weaker than before. As revealed in both the manga and the series, SSB burns through energy too quickly to recover from. With each transformation, Goku gradually looses boosts in his attributes.
In fact, it was specifically stated that Goku’s SSB was 10% weaker than his SSG even after adjusting to the feeling over the course of his training. This could be part of the reason why Vegeta had less of a chance. He jumped the gun and used his SSB transformation too early, whereas Goku is more careful with it.
And that’s not even counting the Kaio-Ken!
Yes, Goku could get a boost that puts him at level that could hundreds of universes. Though, the issue here is that a couple hundred universes isn’t going to cut it. A multiverse is a collection of billions of possible outcomes and is therefore composed of billions of possible universes. The Marvel multiverse itself has an innumerable number of realities and there are still others even I haven’t heard of yet. By contrast, SSB Kaio-Ken’s destructive capacity could only destroy the equivalent to 500 universes without considering the massive energy depletion. Afterwards, the effects of put his body through THAT much work would result in (and I quote) “Delayed Onset Ki Disorder”
See here: http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Delayed_Onset_Ki_Disorder
King Kai even said that if he were to do so again, those effects could jeopardize his quest to becoming stronger.
Now, I know what you’re thinking: “WHAT ABOUT THE ZENKAI BOOST”. Well, here’s the thing, this boost is only effective in a near death experience and Goku hasn’t really faced too many situations in Super that were as close as the ones in Z. Seen as how Goku’s universal feat was done after Z, it already includes the boosts Goku received from the pain inflicted on him. At the most, Goku’s closest near death experienced enhanced his power higher than any other point in his battles by 34x his base form, which would still require him to heal from the damage in a stasis.
The evidence seems quite viable albeit over explained.
Where was it confirmed that this was Frieza’s power level? (100 quadrillion) It sounds like a pretty fair number, but the series mainly gave up on those by this point.
That whole Ki Disorder thing is so fake to the extreme though. Only Dragon Ball Super would come up with such a terrible concept. See, this is why I really can’t stand that show sometimes. It makes a mockery of DBZ the more it airs.
As for the rest of it, Goku would still get a zenkai boost from being beaten up by Bills and Gold Frieza. You don’t have to be super close to death, just really beaten up. Not to mention that Goku was shot through the heart in the Frieza film. Now, I do agree that Goku can easily destroy whole universes and all. Where it gets tricky is with the Beyonder. How can he possibly hope to keep up with Goku’s overwhelming speed and power? The Beyonder has had some fun feats over the years for sure, but he’s really not cut out for hand to hand battles or a general 1 on 1 confrontation against someone of Goku’s level. He’s never fought anyone who was even close to Goku’s level so he just isn’t prepared for this.
I meant: There IS one factor…
MAN, I suck at typing!
Well, regardless of how upset you are with the series, it’s canon.
Soooo…deal with it.
In any event, even with a shot through the chest, Goku has sustained far greater damage than that. Yes, the zenkai boost can increase Goku’s strength regardless of the severity, but the greater damage results in a greater boost. Because Goku has recovered from worse (albeit over a long period of time), I can already see how much the boost would provide, seen as how Goku’s most severe injury resulted in his power being multiplied by 34x.
However, even if Goku were to receive that maximum boost, it still wouldn’t put him at the Beyonder’s level of multiversal devastation.
As for Golden Frieza’s power level, it was confirmed here:
There are other images with better rendering, but you get the idea.
Right, but sometimes you have to be careful about following the source material just because it’s canon. If it doesn’t make sense, then you have to consider that it may have just been a mistake by the writers.
The Golden Frieza thing is definitely good to know. It’s definitely a pretty good power level
You have to admit though, it makes sense in a way.
Goku’s super saiyan blue already consumes a great deal of his power and his kaio-ken puts a severe strain on his body. Based on the events of DBZ, I thought a kaio-ken x10 in addition with an energy consuming transformation would do a lot more than just scrambling his physical capabilities (at leas to that extent).
Though, one shouldn’t be so close minded. You can’t just pick and choose which parts of a form of media are worth verifying as fact. That’s like me dismissing the issues of Fantasic Four volume 3 just because Doom was acting like a sadistic megalomaniac.
I mean…, I didn’t like it…but it DID happen.
I personally don’t think it makes any sense. That illness came out of left field and Goku’s body should just shut down or blow up instead of acting erratically. It seems like a poorly written plot point. As for the Dr. Doom thing, you should be very skeptical. Keep in mind that Marvel and DC are even worse than Dragon Ball Super because they have dozens of writers with their own ideas on how things should go. The result is that you have characters who are inconsistent and power levels that are all over the place. Just because something happened, doesn’t mean that it is accurate.
Well…of COURSE Marvel and DC have more writers.
They have WAAAAAAY more stories and heroes and WAAAAAAY more stories in comic book issues. DB only has one continuous story-line, while Marvel and DC have hundreds they’ve been working on for decades.
Though, I am curious as to what you mean by inconsistent characters and power levels in Marvel Comics.
Can you provide an example?
I could provide examples for days man. Just about every Marvel comic line has a bunch of them. Dan Slott Spider-Man taking on the Avengers multiple times, Spider-Man being faster than Thor, Thing beating Namor, etc. Power levels has never been Marvel or DC’s strong point, but they’re in this for the entertainment and all so I can understand that. If the power levels were consistent, it’d be hard to write any more stories after a while and if you don’t stick to one author, it’s almost impossible to keep everything straight.
Well, I understand your point. Somethings are hard to accept, and many entertainment companies do have their moments of questioning. However, regardless of the inconsistencies, these instances are still canonical occurrences created by its writers and founders.
Regardless of the outcome, these are still classified as facts.
Even if we disagree, that doesn’t change ANYTHING. It’s a part of the story and nothing will change the fact that these events are factual.
Therefore, unless the initial story-line has retconned these instances, we must reference them if they pertain to a characters various traits
Mm, see that’s where we disagree. You’re basically saying that an author can do whatever he/she wants and we have to accept it because it is now canon. I just can’t buy into that kind of logic. If it doesn’t make sense, then it doesn’t matter who is writing the story, I won’t accept it. Authors don’t get free reign over everything just because they’ve been hired.
So, you’re saying that when something doesn’t make sense from YOUR perspective, you’re allowed to completely dismiss it and pretend it never happened at all?
It doesn’t have to be extreme against extreme. Your extreme is that whatever the author says is law. This other one is that we can disregard whatever we want. The true balance is somewhere in the middle
That’s not exactly what I mean.
While I agree with realizing how ridiculous some matters in media can be questionable, these matters are out of our control. We are allowed to disagree with some occurrences, but that doesn’t mean that changes what happened. The reason why I accept this is due to the fact that I can’t do anything to change it.
But I guess we can agree that there’s a grey area with this.
That being said, what exactly are we going to account for when addressing Goku’s strengths and vulnerabilities?
But they’re not out of our control. They may have happened, but it doesn’t mean that it should have. There are lots of moments in media that don’t make sense and you can call them out on it by not including it. I can’t even name all of the things Dragon Ball Super has gotten wrong or many comics in general. It’s not even a grey area for me. If there’s something that is clearly not logical, then I just point out how flawed it is and disregard the scene. Deathstroke beating Flash and GL? Plot hax. Spectre beating Superman? More plot hax, etc.
It gets very tough with Goku for this reason. He’s entered a state of strength where there aren’t really any fighters who can match him. He doesn’t really have any vulnerabilities and the only way to conceivably defeat him is to simply be more powerful and it’s hard to see that happening.
I don’t see how Spectre beating Superman can be classified as plot hax. He’s clearly stronger.
However, the point about Goku losing a great deal of energy while in super saiyan blue form still stands. Even if we multiply Goku’s god level ki x50 and multiply that by 10 with the inclusion of the Kaio-ken, it still doesn’t offer Goku the the power necessary to match the Beyonder’s cosmic power, Regardless of whether or not we include the energy depletion as a result, Goku is still not on the Beyonder’s multiversal destructive capacity. As it stands, the same godly kamehameha he used against Hit would barley damage him.
Superman’s a lot stronger. As for Goku, I agree with the 50 and then the 10, but keep in mind that Goku’s been training. We don’t know just how much stronger his base form has gotten since Battle of Gods. We wouldn’t include the energy depletion anyway since both fighters start at full power.
Spectre’s clearly stronger.
That being said, even if Goku gets a zenkai boost, the greatest boost he received multiplied his power 34 times. Even if were to factor that in, the marvel multiverse has millions of layers that encompass it and the Beyonder destroyed it with sheer rage. Goku has yet to provide evidence of possessing that kind of power.
Spectre is strong and much more powerful than most cosmic deities, but he’s no match for Superman.
The Beyonder won’t be able to land a hit on Goku. Goku’s got the massive speed advantage and his Kamehameha can protect him from any blast. The Beyonder has also been shown to get wrecked by guys like Dr. Doom in the past. He won’t take too well to a direct punch from this Saiyan.
Even if the Beyonder can’t land a punch on him, he could just great a multiversal wide shock-wave to destroy Goku and everything around him. I’ve already scaled Goku’s universal feat in addition to with the super saiyan multiplier, the most his zenkai boost will provide, and the kaio-ken.
It still isn’t enough to kill the Beyonder.
As for his confrontation with Doctor Doom, he was never defeated. His subconscious resonated throughout existence and he was able to reconnect himself with his power after pandering to Doom’s flaws as a mortal.
He can try, but wide range explosions like that never really work. Majin Vegeta and Cell both tried that as they both put all of their energy into one blast. The problem is that it leaves you exposed and Goku could just teleport out of the way at the instant Beyonder shoots the blast. Then the energy wave misses him and Goku closes in for the hit.
The problem is, Goku can’t move out of the way of a multiversal attack seen as how he can’t even leave his own universe unaided. Besides, unlike Cell and Vegeta, that kind of attack doesn’t need to be charged in order to be devastating.
It can’t hit him mid teleport though as he’ll just not in in the space at the instant that the attack hits. Goku can certainly react to it in time to dodge thanks to his superior speed as well
Goku can teleport, but it won’t do much to stop the attack from hitting him. For Goku, his universe constitutes as a cage from which he can’t escape. Regardless of where he flies or teleports to, he’ll still be in the danger zone of the Beyonder’s attack.
Think of it as phasing through existence for a moment, like spot dodging in a Super Smash Bros game. If Goku times it right, he’ll have dodged the blast and then he is free to charge in at the Beyonder and take him down for the count
Yes, but he’ll only be out of it for a split second. The moment he comes back he’ll still be in the blast radius.
The blast radius will have passed Goku by that time and the aftershocks would just be a mild breeze for the Saiyan
The Beyonder’s attacks aren’t just simple shock-waves of cosmic energy. Either way, this is a very meticulous strategy even by Goku’s standards. From what I can gather, the battle you’re describing will mainly consist of Goku running away from the Beyonder while trying performing attacks that won’t even damage him. Eventually, Goku will get tired of using his energy and the Beyonder will still be able return fire. With his body, the Beyonder can literally fight for eternity.
Goku, on the other hand, can not.
Goku just needs to teleport through the first attack and quickly knock Beyonder out with a few haymakers. The Beyonder won’t be able to endure the heavy artillery and Goku doesn’t use up much energy when teleporting. The hit and run tactic will certainly work for the few minutes that Goku will need to pull off the comeback. Lets not underestimate his immense power!
It doesn’t really matter how powerful Goku is in his reality.
That’s not to say his powers don’t work in other universes. It IS to say that a lesser dimensional composition would be utterly inferior. For instance, regardless of the power of a two- dimensional being, they would be completely powerless in the three-dimensional world. Though they can use their two-dimensional power to destroy a two-dimensional universe, if they were to use that same attack on a three-dimensional universe or individual in general, it would be very ineffective.
In his reality, Goku can be considered a three-dimensional entity, correct?
I gotta disagree wholeheartedly there. Dimensions don’t matter at all. Paper Mario can still beat Nate The Great. Dimensions are good for hype and such but in combat, you can only depend on your own wits and strength to get you through the day. Luckily, Goku has that in spades. His Kamehameha is lethal in every dimension.
That is where you are wrong.
Y’see, in our universe, there are three dimensions. They are referred to as length, width, and height. As a result, the objects that possess these dimensions are composed of mass and volume due to their extra dimension. This also offers them a higher standing point in terms of physical prowess against an object or being of only two dimensions. If an object has greater dimensions, then it is automatically greater than anything with less dimensions.
That’s not hype. That’s a fundamental principle seen in both fictional media AND physics. We see it all the time and don’t address due to three-dimensions being the most classic orientation of physical matter.
However, some fictional media have broken this barrier before.
Also, to my knowledge, Paper Mario never fought Nate the Great.
However, Paper Mario also exists in a three-dimensional universe. Paper has length, width, and height. Yes, it’s astronomically thin, but it still has width all things considered. While the game is viewed from a two-dimensional perspective, the characters and objects still function as though they reside on the third dimension.
Put it this way, we can have Superman fight a 4 dimensional being. You’d think that the latter would have the edge, but Superman can sitll punch him out. It doesn’t matter how many dimensions you have, it’ll never be enough to stop a superior foe. Superman is better equipped to handle this guy. Taking it back to Goku, at most TOAA could use his multi dimensions to hide, but he couldn’t hide forever. Goku would find him eventually and lay down the pain.
How much training does one need in order to know how to punch and kick. With incalculable strength and speed as well as reflexes capable of catching a metahuman with the ability to travel faster than light, he can definitely keep up.
Just because YOU think unlimited speed cannot be achieved does not make the subject any less truthful.
You have overlooked one crucial thing: the plot of every Dragon Ball series. With each series, Goku is faced with an opponent that he is unprepared for. Frieza, Cell, and Buu were all foes that were stronger than anyone or anything Goku has ever faced and yet he still needed his allies to support him in these circumstances.
Beerus is the same.
Beerus is a being with power beyond the combined force of every foe Goku has faced. Like all of Goku’s other opponents, Beerus is far stronger than Goku’s previous fighters and therefore serves as his new motivation. He’s the very reason why Goku decided to reach a new level of strength in the fist place, and it still wasn’t enough to push him into using his full power. Don’t you see, Beerus is supposed to serve as the force that pushes Goku to become stronger just like his other enemies.
It’s a cycle basically.
Also, I’m not referencing Super. I’m referencing the movies that manifested the idea first and were written better.
Well, Beyonder can throw a punch, but Goku could casually sidestep it and then use his momentum to throw Beyonder on his back. The shock of the impact would definitely start him off on a bad note. There is no such thing as unlimited speed or unlimited anything. They all have limits which is something that the cosmic entities never really seem to get. They try and try to be as powerful as can be, but it is all ultimately futile.
Frieza, Cell, and Buu all made sense though. Super is where things started to get dicey with Gold Frieza and Beerus running around. Trust me, it makes no sense and while I can understand what the writers were going for, they failed epicly. It just didn’t work out and the writers bit off a lot more than they could chew this time.
That is where you are wrong again.
Let’s say there is a Superman from a universe with only two dimensions. He can destroy two-dimensional stars, galaxies, etc. In that universe, he is unstoppable. However, in a three-dimensional instance, things would be different. Y’see, this hypothetical Superman does does not possess a third dimension and therefore does not possess mass or volume.
As a result, he is quite fragile.
Putting that into perspective, imagine a being from a reality of four dimensions. Based on my scientific knowledge and study of theoretical and applied physics, this extra dimension offers whoever this being is a much higher standing point as an entity.
I gotta disagree again. Whether it be 2D galaxies or 3D ones, Superman can take them all. In a hypothetical battle between a 2D and 3D Superman, it’s hard to say who would win because they’d be so evenly matched. I don’t think more dimensions really makes things better and fiction doesn’t always follow physics.
Actually, DC, Marvel, and numerous other fictional media do follow physics to some degree.
Of those laws of physics, dimensions are applied all the time. Though they are not directly described it, dimensions have a great standing point in offering characters the tangibility needed to become more realistic. All characters, including Superman, Goku, Thor, and even Bass are created on a three-dimensional universe similar to our’s.
Of all aspects of physics, dimensions are one of the easiest to understand and apply.
It’s very simple really: more dimensions in one’s being= more power.
True, but the “to some degree” is the key part there. Personally, I don’t think there really is anything worthwhile beyond 3 dimensions in fiction. 3 is just the most powerful state.
How is three the most powerful state?
All of the good abilities can already be accessed in 3D
So 3D = Win
Put this into perspective:
Based on your logic, a two-dimensional being has an even chance against a two dimensional being. How can a two-dimensional entity defeat a three-dimensional entity if their body and attacks don’t even have mass or volume.
An additional dimension isn’t just a null and void attribute. It is a SERIOUS boost in all attributes in both the physical and mental sense. That being said, a fourth dimension added would offer an entity abilities on a metaphysical scale. Three-dimensional attacks would be very inadequate against them.
Well yes, a 2D being can still put up a pretty good fight and potentially win against a 3D being. The problem is that all of the popular heroes and villains are already in 3D so it doesn’t leave much for 2D. See, that’s the problem with 4D. It adds meta physical attacks, but those aren’t too handy in a fight anyway <_<
That…makes no sense.
Put THIS in perspective.
How could a two-dimensional Bass defeat and three-dimensional Goku if this hypothetical Bass only possesses length and width. With only those two dimensions, both his attacks and his body do not possess the mass it would need in order to affect his opponent as a result of lacking depth.
Not only that, but this two-dimensional creature would also be unable to perceive a being with more that two dimensions. From his perspective, a three-dimensional entity or object would look…well…very strange to say the least.
He LITERALLY wouldn’t know what hit him! 🙂
Bass would still have his determination and unique skill set to help him take the win clean. I think you’re underestimating 2D fighters, they still would probably have mass and stuff, just not in a way that we could comprehend. Think of it more like Classic Sonic meeting the modern version.
I’m not talking about 2D and 3D in terms of animation. I’m talking about these dimensions in terms of their perspective on their reality. Do you think that Bass and Goku see completely flat figures in their respective universes?
Their perspective on their reality is the same as ours. They view it as a world with length, width, and depth the same way we do.
Well sure. Imagine you were walking down the street and saw a 2D version of yourself. You’d still feel it if it tried to slap you. In the same way a 2D Goku would be just as deadly as a 3D version
No it wouldn’t.
A being with only two dimensions doesn’t have depth. Therefore, it doesn’t have mass.
I’m not sure I can accept that. We don’t live in the 2nd dimension, how can we presume to know their capabilities?
I’ve tried expressing my studies with as much simplicity as possible. Let’s just go back to power scaling.
My calculations have shown that Goku maximum destructive capacity is around a thousand universes with the force of his punches. Based on the energy output recorded by the official DBZ power records, Goku’s Kamehameha expels energy about three times his typical power level.
As ridiculous as it may seem, Goku’s full power Godly Kamehameha can destroy about 3,000 universes…
I can definitely see him destroying at least 3k universes with a single blast. Goku’s power level is just completely insane and he keeps on getting stronger and stronger. Most of his opponents would be dead before they even knew what hit them
Even if Goku were strong enough to destroy that many universes, his maximum destructive capacity still puts him at a level far below the Beyonder.
That was more of a minimum though. Also, keep in mind that we still don’t have a way to get Beyonder to land a hit on Goku thanks to the big difference in speed and ability. I think Beyonder’s best chance it to try to spam energy blasts and keep Goku at a distance, but it still wouldn’t work since Goku can teleport. Once they’re up close and personal, it’s game over for Beyonder since he can’t endure the famous Kamehameha wave.
Actually that was the maximum.
I rounded the numbers from their decimal point. I have actually calculated Goku’s destructive capacity to be less than that.
Either way, like I said before, the most Goku’s Kamehameha wave can do is destroy 3,000 universes if we were to round up. However, 3,000 universes pales in comparison to the hits the Beyonder’s withstood without a scratch.
Nah, I don’t see how that could be the maximum. Remember about the zenkai boosts and all? You were basing your numbers off of Arc 1 instead of the later seasons so we need to multiply that by a ton of amounts to even get close.
The Beyonder is tough, but as we mentioned…he just doesn’t have the speed or durability to stand up to someone like Goku. Keep in mind that Goku is unlike anyone that the Beyonder has ever fought and a quick Kamehameha would wreck him. Not to mention that Goku could just stick to hand to hand combat and still come out with a win.
Nope, that was the maximum. I rounded 2.7 (how much a person’s damage output is multiplied while using the kamehameha) and got 3 as the result. I then multiplied that by Goku’s destructive capacity in terms of ordinary strength as a super saiyan blue with the kaio-ken. It is also worth mentioning that Goku’s universal feat didn’t kill or destroy anything in his universe. Therefore, I was very generous here when I gave Goku this feat.
Also, how exactly are you supposed to know how great of a power increase Goku gets from this zenkai boost?
Did you calculate this boost based on the official records from the show?
Did you just pull out an imaginary number that in no way pertains to what was shown in the show?
Did you just you just decide to exaggerate Goku’s power by multiplying it by infinity without even bothering to make a more consistent measure.
Why do we need to these make calculations of his power more complicated than just using his greatest displays and scaling it off from there? We can’t properly assess what the zenkai boost has done throughout the latest arcs. It makes no sense to give credit if we do not know how much credit is due.
Besides, do you honestly think a zenkai boost is enough to kill a being capable of destroying a multiverse with a scale only be described as endless. Millions of different realities are within the Marvel multiverse alone and the Beyonder destroyed it with but a fraction of his power.
He even withstood an attack that could have destroyed billions of dimensions with a fraction of his power.
I’m referring to dimensions that serve as existential domains for demons and deities (god universes essentially). When the Beyonder was struck with this blast, he was neither injured nor fazed during the aftermath of the assault.
What rational scaling can put Goku above THAT?
Remember you were using the wrong base power levels though. The number should be a lot higher. The boosts are calced roughly from the show along with fan interpretations based on the future feats. I prefer not to use imaginary numbers unless they do seem relevant. As for making it infinity, it saves time since it’s basically infinite and impossible to measure but we could go ahead and try anyway…nothing to lose right?
We need the calcs because shows like Dragon Ball Super exist to downplay the characters. They are trying to trick us and get us to underestimate Goku. As for Beyonder, keep in mind that he still has no way to hit Goku. Goku is just far to fast and far to strong. His attacks scare even me as I just resaw his fight against Majin Vegeta where he actuallty did some damage before losing. He’s a master hand to hand fighter an-zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
also he has his energy blasts and transformations. Getting back to the matter at hand, Beyonder can’t hit him and he can’t hope to endure the blasts. Enduring universes blowing up and all those shenanigans is one thing, but a full powered Kamehameha is quite another. There are explanations that we can have for blocking billions of dimensions like the fact that he just wished for it not to happen. Keep in mind that the universe bends to the whims of cosmic guys in comics so he may not have endured the attack so much as it just didn’t hurt him. It’s the same way as TOAA would survive such a blast because it’s his universe. Goku isn’t a part of the Beyonder’s control so his punches would really hurt and the Beyonder isn’t used to pain. Let me post this up real quick
Goku can deal with incredible pain and didn’t even snap at his friend unlike 99% of other main characters
*a scale only described as endless.
I wasn’t using a base power level. I was scaling from his battle with Beerus. It was the only time Goku’s power affected the universe in a manner that made the Kais believe the end of the universe was imminent.
As far as I know, your “calculations” are no more feasible than the scaling I did by using actual multipliers recorded by the official DBZ databooks.
Simply scaling by multiplying by infinity is not only an inaccurate way to make a ridiculous assumption, but it is also a lazy way to scale one’s power when a reasonable power level can’t be found with common logic.
Basically, it’s ALL hype.
Hype doesn’t amount to an actual calculation.
“There are explanations that we can have for blocking billions of dimensions like the fact that he just wished for it not to happen.”
Are you serious? OBVIOUSLY that event was meant to show the Beyonder’s actual durability. Comic writers back then tried their hardest to get their point across that a character is much stronger than everyone else. They provide explanations for everything and expect them to be taken seriously.
Besides, the Beyonder isn’t your average space god.
He isn’t even a cosmic entity.
In fact, he isn’t even from the Marvel multiverse at all.
He practically IS a multiverse.
He came from the Beyond Realm, an INFINITE realm completely outside the multiversal barriers, where he was EVERYTHING and everything was HIM. Compared to the realm he embodied, the Marvel multiverse was described as “a drop in the water”.
He’s basically an infinite multiverse condensed into an entity capable of changing its form without limit. Therefore, the Beyonder is not limited to affecting his native multiverse. If he were, then he wouldn’t have been so powerful in the Marvel multiverse to begin with, seen as how he was born outside it.
If he is able to replicate powers, destroy armor capable of withstanding reality destroying attacks with physical force, destroying the multiverse with a fraction of his power, controlling every subatomic particle on Earth, and eliminating all death in a foreign multiverse, what’s to stop him from doing the same to another foreign multiverse?
His omnipotent powers allow him to increase his strength, speed, durability, and energy projection to limitless heights, hence being gifted with OMNIPOTENCE. It’s been confirmed over and over and over again by comic writers, bloggers, critics, and average viewers all across the web. There is no limit to his power. Everyone who’s read Secret Wars 1 & 2 knows that.
Also, the Official handbook of the Marvel Universe seems to support this:
The fact that YOU think you know better than us reveals that you are either an arrogant fool or just a spiteful one.
Finally, the Beyonder HAS experienced pain. After mimicking a human form, he was beaten and battered to the ground by gang of street thugs, only to heal himself in seconds then teleport to learn more about Earth. Plus, he didn’t even get angry at them. They were COMPLETE STRANGERS who beat him up on the spot, and he merely questioned why they resorted to such physical harassment and continued on his merry way with a smile.
He was even tormented by the creatures of HELL itself when he temporarily made himself a mere mortal. What could be worse than being force to endure torture from the very place where all evil, pain, and misery stem from?
On the other hand, Goku… snapped at his BEST FRIEND after getting hit in the head with… a rock.
From the handbook. “Special Skills: None. Reactions: Unknown” Beyonder can’t react to Goku’s blows. Goku may have snapped at Krillin, but he wasn’t very mean about it and was just startled that Krillin would even think to do such a thing to him. You have to admit that it was rather uncalled for. I’m not sure about the Beyonder’s experience counting much. You can argue that he still knew he would be okay because of his abilities so he was never in any danger. Why would he react to this? The way that he experiences things is different from mere mortals.
It doesn’t change the fact that Beyonder is a cosmic being. A billion dimensions hitting him means nothing when he can be the universe at will and all that. It makes sense that he wouldn’t be hurt, but taking a Kamehameha is a whole other issue.
It said “None KNOWN”.
The Beyonder has still displayed numerous abilities. He was shown to have acrobatic capabilities while fighting the Thing and learned much about the fundamentals of Earth and Beyond. His fighting skills even further tested against the finest combatants in the Marvel Universe.
Besides, even if he doesn’t have any shown, the stats offer him the speed advantage anyway. Even if he is not “traditionally fast”, speed is a concept of space and time. Seen as how the Beyonder can control space and time, he can be as fast as he wants to be.
In terms of the Beyonder experiencing pain, enduring torture from hell is still a viable instance. He extracted all of his energies into an advanced machine of his own design and reverted himself into REAL human being. He was weak, mortal, and outclassed by a massive army from Hell. He was being subjected to the wrath of the demonic and was on the verge of death of the most grievous kind. Had it not been for the machine’s proximity, he would’ve been down for the count. In spite of this, the Beyonder did not go after them to seek revenge when they retreated.
From my perspective, I think the Beyonder has the edge in this regard.
However, I don’t see how a kamehameha is different. It was an attack conceived by a mortal, while the Beyonder has fought with immortal beings capable of destroying the cosmos with the mere force of their physical blows.
I mean, Beerus survived a kamehameha when Goku had the power of a god in addition with the enhancements of a super saiyan, and he didn’t have a scratch on him!
Yes, but Goku is one of the greatest hand to hand fighters in media. The Beyonder is definitely not coming close to that level of skill so he may as well not even try for the title. Goku would have him down quicker than ZeRo lost 3 stocks in a crew battle to defend America
Traditional speed is the most important speed. The Beyonder won’t be able to keep up with someone as ruthlessly powerful and fast as Goku. Keep in mind that while Beyonder controls all, he is also controlled by all. He can try running after Goku, but he’d merely be chasing an after image by that point. Goku would be all over him with multiple combos.
I still dunno, Goku’s taken a lot of abuse. He was punched below the belt by Android 13 in one of the movies and when you consider that this guy could break planets with a single punch, it’s gotta take some endurance to not pass out from that.
Well, Beerus should have been obliterated by that attack so you’ve got me there. It’s why Super makes a mockery of everything that we once held dear. That being said, Goku’s full powered Kamehameha in his Kaio Ken X 20 God SSJ form would do the trick. Beyonder doesn’t have hype to back himself up this time and would have to take the full brunt of the attack. I just don’t think he would be able to endure it. Not to mention that Goku would hit him with multiple blasts and then move on to hand to hand while the Beyonder would still be stunned into silence
Who need’s to learn how to fight when your speed is unlimited, your strength is too great to calculate, and you’re referred to as being “Totally Indestructible”. The Beyonder’s stats clearly give him the edge.
Like I said, speed is a concept of space and time. two things the Beyonder can warp with ease. Even Goku can’t transcend time and space.
In any event, since when is the Beyonder controlled by ALL? From what I recall, the Beyonder came from a realm beyond the dimensional limitations pf the Multiverse. He does not need to abide by the fundamental forces that keep it in order.
Also, getting punched by a planet busing attack is child’s play when one has endured being tormented by the forces of hell itself.
Look, has it ever occurred to you that the writers made Beerus strong to the point where he tanked Goku’s signature move in order to put into perspective how powerful he really is? They obviously needed to add such instances in to let the audience know that Beerus is more powerful than any foe Goku has been forced to fight. It’s SO obvious.
Unlike Goku, the Beyonder doesn’t need hype in order to be stronger than Goku. I’ve already scaled Goku’s max capacity in addition with his kaio-ken kamehameha and it doesn’t measure up at all. His stats and feats prove this to be true.
You still need to know how to fight or Goku is going to use his Judo to fight rings around him. No speed is unlimited so Goku still has the edge. Beerus is just a poorly written character and it’s Super so what else would you expect. Lets just face the facts, Goku is one of the strongest beings in all of media and he scares people just by showing up. That’s true power and Goku’s just got that It factor
*beyond the dimensional limitations OF the Multiverse
Why on earth are people still arguing about this? Dreag’s trolling. I read through damn near all of this blog and it gave me a hell of a laugh. People are eating the bait like it’s the best on the planet, holy crap.
I’m no troll!
Read some more stuff on your blog. Grade A troll, and a professional one at that. Goddamn, I wish I could troll this well!
Well you know what they say. If you’re going to do something, you may as well do it well
Or ya know. In the off chance that he’s not trolling, Dreag, you’ve gotta be 8.
8, but my blog’s almost 8 years old at this point…
Happy 8th birthday
So dreager is basically saying that goku can beat the solar system buster, and now he much more powerful, and he could beat beyonder with ease since beyonder lacks speed. Are you stupid? Even if goku could destroy 24000 universe, he wouldn’t even put a scratch on beyonder. Are you assuming that cell who can destroy the solar system is more powerful than The beyonder who could tank a million of universe exploding on him with absolute ease? Even Goku’s power is growing, but it is nowhere one cell of beyonder. How did you say that beerus should have been owned by goku? It is like sayin one above all should lose to captain Spider-Man. You said beyonder lacks speed. But why would he even need to avoid goku attack? It is like saying goku would kill Zeno. All of goku destructive capabilities would not do anything to beyonder’s skin. He just thinks goku out of existence.
Well, Goku is one of the strongest guys ever. Trust me, you don’t want to underestimate him
That’s the HUGE issue that you keep misunderstanding. The Beyonder HAS NO limits, nor he displayed any at any point.
When Jim Shooter created the Beyonder, he essentially created a being that is more powerful than every hero or villain in the Marvel Multiverse combined. His goal was to make someone who was irrefutably limitless.
I mean, it’s stated over and over again that he is omnipotent. Having that power alone gives him the edge. With this power, there is literally nothing the Beyonder can’t accomplish. Everything is what he decides it is.
If he decides granite is squeezable and soft, it is.
If he wants cows to have wings, they do.
If he wants the world’s inhabitants to be subservient to his will, they are.
If he wants to have infinite strength and speed, he does.
Omnipotence literally defines the infinite.
This is confirmed even further when you see how much the Beyonder limited himself after the first issue of Secret Wars 2. When the Beyonder tried to seek a greater understanding of humanity, he decided to do so by imitating them by mimicking form: one composed of flesh rather than his indestructible composition. Upon doing he took on a persona that had three dimensions instead of an infinite number. This is crucial when determining his absolute power. By limiting himself to three dimensions instead of infinite dimensions, this acquired form was much weaker than his true form. In fact, when comparing the power of his infinite dimensional self, his three dimensional form is utterly infinitesimal by comparison. Basically what this means is that destroying the multiverse was barely even the tip of the iceberg of what the Beyonder is capable of.
Also, you appear to misunderstand cosmic entities as well. Y’see, like the characters from Dragon Ball, the cosmic entities of marvel feed of a form of life energy that circulates throughout reality. For them, this is the power cosmic. This energy signature is far more powerful as it offers its user complete control of ALL forms of matter and energy in the universe and similarly allows said user to enhance their knowledge, strength, speed, and durability. It further amplifies their senses as well by offering them cosmic awareness of all things in existence via telepathy or mere perception. It’s basically ki on a far greater scale. This energy is gifted to beings that you would probably refer to as gods. Even Thor and Odin have it, albeit to a lesser degree.
He definitely has limits though. Every character has limits, why would you believe that he does not? I think you’re totally buying into the power cosmic song and dance at this point so it’s hurting your objectivity. Lets put this into perspective. Marvel wants you to think that being all powerful means that you have no limits, but this isn’t the case. The strongest characters tend to be the ones who stop just short of cosmic. Seiya, Goku, Ichigo, etc. They have the physical feats to back them up and don’t fall into the wave of hype. There are some cosmic beings who can actually hold their own like Athena, Captain Marvel, and a few others, but cosmic beings are usually on the losing side of the fence. Why do you think they always look so nervous all the time? It’s because they realize that their cosmic powers don’t mean potato chips to the real powerful fighters. Put Yusuke and Living Tribunal in a cage and 9 times out of 10 Yusuke is the one who walks out of there. Same thing happens with Superman and the Spectre or Raditz and the One Above All. These cosmic beings rely on their reputation to precede them so everything falls apart when they fight someone with a lot of confidence and determination.
How does ALL powerful NOT mean limitless. The dictionary definition of omnipotence literally means limitless.
How can you not say these cosmic entities are powerful when they have bested the heroes and villains you listed? Plus, the Living Tribunal you continue to underestimate had the power to best an artifact that brought every hero and villain in the marvel universe to their doom with a simple gesture.
I am using information provided by the source material. Us fans have no right to slap a sticker that says “canon” on OUR speculations. You can’t just edit stories in this ridiculous manner as if you OWN them.
Based on your logic Thor can beat the Living Tribunal. However, Thor was easily bested by Thanos with and without the Infinity Gauntlet. Seen as how the Living Tribunal easily thwarted the Gauntlet, it’s obvious that he can best Thor as well as numerous other heroes and villains with even greater ease. It’s not that hard to comprehend.
Also, exactly how have these cosmic entities acted scared all the time. If anything, they act LESS hysterical than everyone else. The only time they have ever shown any sign of fear was during the events caused by the Beyond Realm’s interference.
Why should I take any of you misinterpreted conspiracy theories into consideration after your Thor vs, Iron Man battle? You really diminished your credibility there.
If I had any hope for you, it’s gone now. 😦
You don’t even have any basis to support your conspiracy theories. You’re just typing claims without offering evidence to make them anymore logical.
You don’t have power over the writers.
Your interpretation of their characters is not absolute.
You have no right to give people weaknesses without offering evidence of such claims.
But that’s not the only reason as to why I’m upset.
You keep saying I’m using hype, when I’ve provided more evidence to support my claim than you have on this entire thread. If anyone is using hype, it’s YOU! I’ve found scans that offer the Beyonder as well as the cosmic entities of marvel the edge in power while the most of you’re arguments consist of empty claims and videos of Goku getting more hurt than hype! They basically contradict the point you are trying to make. You’re just offering me more reason to believe otherwise.
You also say that I’m buying into the power cosmic song and dance. Maybe you’re buying into the DBZtard hype train that leaves well-rounded individuals deluded and overzealous in the face of fiction. Maybe you’re interpretation of power is false beyond my help. You just can’t see what fans around the world see.
Maybe…you’re just wrong.
Because no character is all powerful. They just feel like they are and substitute their reality for our own. Put it this way, sometimes I feel like I could eat an unlimited amount of pizza slices. After the first 8, I start to realize that this isn’t the case. It’s the same way for the cosmic beings. They believe that they are invincible, but that’s only because they have yet to fight a supreme being who completely outclasses them the way that Goku does.
Eh, of course Iron Man can beat Thor. Thor just can’t keep up with his anime armor and Ironman’s attacks deal quite a punch. I’m not accusing you of hype so much as I’m accusing the comic industry of it. I mean, look at Goku’s transformation below and compare it to anything you’ve ever seen a comic character accomplish.
They’re just not even close. They can keep on destroying their universes only to bring them back again over and over again. They’ll never have the same impact that a guy like Goku has. He went from being a farmer to a guy with amazing vocals and could yell for ages. He scared Majin buu who was known to be all but invincible and has many other accolades to his name. Seriously, Goku’s not someone to be trifled with and his feats just have a whole lot of depth. I posted several videos of Goku getting wrecked just to show that Goku is still relatable unlike the Beyonder and the other cosmic foes. Goku has fun, but he also knows when to get serious and that’s when you definitely want to be on his good side.
That is where you are wrong yet again.
I’m not saying the cosmic hierarchy is all powerful (at least not the ones below the Living Tribunal). I’m merely saying that your interpretation of their power is sorely misguided and close-minded. They were designed to be the superior entities of the Multiverse. The only mortals I see having the power to do battle with them are Thanos, Nathan Grey, Franklin Richards, and the Scarlet Witch.
However, the Beyonder isn’t part of the cosmic hierarchy. He’s Beyond both the hierarchy and the Multiverse they bring balance to. It’s stated over and over again that his power knows no limits and that his very existence alters the coarse of life drastically.
As I’ve already stated, he is essentially an entire infinite dimensional multiverse superior to the already vast marvel reality. He surpassed all of Marvel’s greatest characters effortlessly and performed each momentous task without feeling the slightest bit of fatigue. He has NEVER been limited. If anything, he was TRYING his best to limit his own power while properly integrating with the humans on Earth.
Dude, I don’t see the difference between the anime Iron Man and classic Iron Man. If anything, the current Iron Man’s Superior Iron Man suit and Model 51 are superior due to their adaptive technology. Though, even with that, it still wouldn’t be strong enough to beat Thor.
As for that clip, pushing clouds, disrupting television signals and causing earthquakes isn’t that great considering what the Beyonder did just by floating in space with his arms crossed.
He imploded suns, caused entire planets to collid, and destroyed parallel dimensions with far less effort than Goku put into his transformation. I think it’s clear who had the greater feat in power.
Other cosmic entities can do even better than Goku as well. Galactus has fought and defeated Marvel’s heroes even when they were properly coordinated as a team and possesses the ability to absorb, and in turn, destroy entire planets to become stronger. Even when he was low in sustenance, he managed to extinguish two entire stars while traversing through the cosmos. He even moved an entire galaxy with a wave of his hand.
Yes, we can relate to Goku because there are fights even he can’t win. On the other hand, the Beyonder could have killed everything in the Multiverse if he was less preoccupied with trying to understand it. I mean, he already did it and we’ve seen that he could kill Molecule Man if he had the intention of doing so. The Beyonder already has feats and recorded levels of strength, speed, and durability to verify this. YOU may not believe in limitless characters, but almost every fictional action packed form of medium has one or two characters that are meant to serve as the irrefutably unbeatable foes that ensure that the more admirable characters don’t lose their luster.
Why else do you think the gods and angels were introduced to the new Dragon Ball series. With how strong Goku is becoming, Akira Toriyama and the rest of the DBZ crew need to develop characters too strong for even Goku in order to ensure his journey doesn’t end too quickly. That could be one of the reasons why we had to wait so long for Goku’s story to continue after GT. With the foes he’s bested, what better way to give Goku a run for his money that the very forces that dictate reality’s order.
It makes sense when you think about it. Overpowered characters in fiction that serve as a balance in power to ensure that our more favored characters still have the same effect they were meant to have.
Anime Iron Man can move a lot faster which makes sense since anime characters move a lot faster than their western counterparts. It gives him a considerable advantage in this fight. Thor simply can’t react to him.
Again, The Beyonder has limits, but a Marvel comic isn’t going to show it. As you mentioned, series like to have their overpowered characters that seem to be invincible. It doesn’t change the fact that no character is invincible nor will there ever be one. All characters have limits and that’s just the nature of the business. So, standing in space and blowing stuff up may look cool to some, but I can’t say that it does much for me. The Goku scene is what gives me the chills as it was such a powerful moment in the show. Can you really imagine the Beyonder going toe to toe with such a powerful figure? I don’t think so. The Beyonder isn’t meant for hand to hand action on this insane level. It’s just not in the cards for him and he’d be lucky to survive a minute with the Saiyan.
Galactus has also been humiliated by the Ghost Rider and the revolving door of authors and editors ensures that no character is safe from being defeated by a weaker foe. As such, it also makes you double think the Beyonder moments. They happened yes, but cosmic feats don’t really work as well as physical DBZ ones. The DBZ moments just have the real impact that you would expect.
That is false and your logic is absurdly flawed. I see no inherent differences between the two. Comic book Iron Man’s suit is capable of maneuvering at speeds capable of moving too fast for the gravitational pull of a black hole to suck him in.
Giving a character the edge in power simply due to a biased preference to a medium adaptation is ridiculous.
By your explanation, all of your top characters just as easily have weaknesses that the writers are hiding. That’s the same as saying Goku is secretly allergic to lobster, but Akira Toriyama is hiding that from us by not putting it in the show. It’s also like saying Superman can absorb energy from more than just the sun to enhance his powers, but DC wants to keep that under wraps to make him look weaker. In fact, I can just as easily say that Bass has several weaknesses without offering scans to prove this in the same manner as you have.
Your assumption makes no sense.
If you’re going to edit the source material, then why should anyone take any of your fights seriously. You’re basically creating false information from thin air when you have no right to do so.
Well then, if pushing clouds and causing earthquakes is better than destroying entire suns and dimensions, then that means destroying a brick with your bare hands is better than disintegrating an entire brick house with eye lasers.
Better yet, orbiting the planet in ten minutes is better than orbiting the entire universe in ten seconds.
In fact, based on your logic, leveling an island by powering up is better than leveling an entire continent with A SINGLE FOOTSTEP!
Y’know what, let’s go even further.
So what if Vegeta destroyed a planet with finger lasers?
Thanos punched Hulk into a building, so that’s obviously better.
What’s that?…Master Roshi destroyed the Moon?
Well, Saitama created a huge crater in a mountain with a punch, which is better because it LOOKS cooler.
So, Broly destroyed an entire galaxy?
PFFFFFF! Cell’s kamehameha could’ve destroyed an entire solar system. I mean, even though he didn’t destroy it and there are millions of solar systems in a single galaxy, Cell was obviously better because his scene looked FLASHY and had more cool music and pretty lights!
(As you can tell, I am being painfully sarcastic.)
Just because some fiction has better effects than others doesn’t automatically make them superior in power. That’s like saying a character who destroyed the universe is weaker than a person who destroyed a planet just because the latter had anime effects while the other scenario had comic book effects.
IT MAKES NO SENSE!
When you look at a feat, you don’t look solely at the art itself. You look at the amount of damage and the force exerted to do so. Obviously the Beyonder’s feat revealed greater power compared to Goku’s transformation seen as how it effectively destroyed the cosmos effortlessly. Just because it didn’t have an amalgamation of pictures with the Beyonder screaming and over the top flashing effects and music doesn’t mean that should take away from the overall outcome. It still had reasonable illustrations and descriptions that help the audience understand what is going on.
The same can be said about Tolkien’s work with Lord of the Rings. He use literary explanations that describe the power of Middle Earth’s champions. He uses class and consistency while revealing what greatness they are capable of. It’s one of the reasons why his books and movies are cherished so fondly.
Yes, animation and artistry are important when trying to visualize a character’s power. However, rather than looking at the over the top effects, look at the damage their attacks do and the description provided. If the resulting damage is more severe, then you would obviously choose that one.
The Beyonder provoked a greater outcome with less effort. Obviously his feats are better.
Besides, Goku’s super saiyan 3 isn’t even that great anymore. He can only maintain the form for a finite period of time and its power is utterly inferior to Beerus’s godly ki. As it stands, he would be better off as a saiyan beyond god or a SSGSS.
I think you’re underestimating how important the medium is in how good the feat actually is. If you have seen an episode of the anime, then you’ll see how obviously faster he is when compared to his western counterpart. Can you really look at Earth’s Mightiest Heroes or Avengers Assemble and say with a straight face that he is faster there? That version may have the better “feats” but it still loses out because the anime version wins the eye test. He is clearly faster and a hastily drawn feat can’t save him from that. Combat moments are still the most important and the anime armor was easily his most impressive ever.
Goku being weak to needles and lobsters wouldn’t change anything except for a handful of foes that he would dispatch anyway. You can’t make bold assumptions that are not in the source material but you can certainly extract information from your common sense. One Above All, Beyonder, and other such characters are created to be seen as completley invincible. The authors give them feats and moments to make them appear as such, but they blow up as soon as you leave the universe. Put it this way, Discord is all powerful in My Little Pony, but he wouldn’t last more than a minute against the main characters of Scan 2 Go. They’re simply on a different level and you can’t group them together with the assumption that Discord is still all powerful. It’s the same with Beyonder.
Let me link this
What are your reactions from watching the video? If you’re too focused on feats then you may be tempted to say that the video was pointless and didn’t give you even a remote glimpse of how strong the characters are. That’s the wrong way to look at the video. From the video you can immediately tell that Kirito (Black Swordsman) is incredibly fast and much faster than someone like Iron Man. You can try to look for the feats, but you won’t find them since the opening wasn’t made for feats. Instead it’s demonstrating their abilities visually and that is more effective anyway. A picture is worth a thousand words after all.
Also, you were kidding, but Saitama’s mountain feat was a whole lot more impressive than Roshi since coupled with his versatility it shows that he could hold his own against some DBZ characters. I’d take him over Roshi any day of the week. Cell’s feat is also more impressive than Broly’s because we don’t even know how Broly destroyed it. Seeing him charge a blast and then watching the Galaxy blow up would be a different story, but that’s not what happened. Cell actually showed us what he was capable of.
Better effects is crucial. I’m glad you brought up Lord of the Rings because that is one of the most overhyped franchises out there. Batman could basically take out 90% of the characters in that franchise. Books can’t properly depict how strong characters are which is why you need comics and shows. Live Action is also far behind animated content so an anime is always ideal. The effects are what you want to look out for, but that’s not to say that you ignore the damage. You have to look at the context and Goku’s feat was just a whole lot more impressive. It was a real feat and he had to yell for several minutes to even transform. Compare that to Beyonder just standing around and it’s no contest. I do agree that Goku continues to get stronger and stronger to the point where it’s scary. He’s already the 3rd strongest being in all of media and the gap continues to widen. I don’t even know who is in 4th, but whoever it is doesn’t have much of a chance of surpassing Goku.
So, what you’re saying is that a character’s strength can only be depicted if that character has over the top special effects and that feats of characters don’t actually matter as long as the visual effects are pretty?
Not quite that extreme, but you’re on the right track. Think of it like a bottle of Pepsi. Someone can describe how delicious it is over multiple novel volumes, but it won’t actually do anything for you until you actually taste it. Feats are like that, you have to actually see them in action to see how impressive they are. Written depictions aren’t much more than a tease
You are sorely incorrect.
Flashing pictures are not a necessity for fiction. Books have been around for ages providing riveting descriptions of peril and strength.
I mean, if you were reading a book that describes a noble knight slaying an army of 1,000-foot-tall dragons with a magic sword in a matter of minutes and watching an anime where a character throws a car twenty feet away from them, which would be more impressive?
Yes, you can easily see that the car was thrown to a substantial distance, but slaying an army of deadly beasts seems like a more viable action.
What I’m trying to say is, you shouldn’t put all your faith in special effects in order to depict strength. If that were the case, then all of the other characters in Dragon Ball, DC Comics, and even the Megaman manga would be outclassed severely by other properties.
Do you honestly think these shows are the highest order of animation. There are numerous other professional companies that add effects that blow people away to a far greater extent.
Fire falling from the sky, planets exploding everywhere, and galaxies being thrown effortlessly are only the tip of the iceberg for what else is out there. There are animators that take months to YEARS of preparation and come out with a digital spectacle that receives more positive accolades in a month than Dragon Ball would get year.
By your logic on the importance of visual effects, Goku shouldn’t be anywhere near the top of your list.
I’m still not sure on that though. Defeating 1000 dragons may not be good enough. It means that he has a good sword, but a character who throws a car that far in an anime shows me that she already has a lot of strength at her disposal. She can just catch the guy’s sword swing mid-way and then take him down for the count. Especially when you consider the fact that monsters are really slow and never tend to end up being much of a threat.
I think you’re underestimating DBZ. DBZ has some of the best fight visuals of all time and that probably won’t be changing anytime soon. Again, I’ll redirect you to the SSJ3 Goku scene. That one can’t really be surpassed by just about anything. If we’re talking pure animation, then Railgun is probably the best anime, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that it has the best fights. Some anime also go too far with details to the point where they look bad like just about any theatrical anime film that got big in the U.S. or the “mainstream” anime that try not to be too colorful. DBZ had the balance of awesome to super powerful just right.
In any event, good looking visuals don’t always equal power.
Destroying a universe with a single effortless blast of energy would still quantify as a viable display of power to a far greater extent than destroying a planet with a blast that took everything ounce of energy in one’s body. Why should it matter if the drama was higher, the animation was more showy, and the music was over the top? The latter destroyed less with more effort while the other destroyed more with less effort. That would mean the first candidate could cause even greater damage if they used everything they had.
That poses a gigantic gap in power.
Visual appeal shouldn’t be the biggest priority.
If you were to choose between two weapons to fight in a fiction war, one that weighs several tons but looks cool when you fire single rounds that can only destroy walls and one from a comic book franchise that fits in your pocket, erects a force-field around you, and can level entire cities with a single shot in fraction of the time it takes the first weapon to fire, which would you pick?
You’d go for greater function instead of heavy, over the top flair. Even if the first one looks cooler in its design and charging visuals, the the latter has more power and can fire faster even if doesn’t LOOK as threatening.
They don’t Always equal power. I can agree to that. That being said, it certainly does help a lot. Over the top music and good animation allows you to see whether the attack was true or hype infused. For example, Iron Man’s armor may be said to be supersonic or hypersonic in the American shows, but then you see him getting hit by random nobodies. That lets you throw out the earlier feats since it doesn’t matter what the specs say when it loses in practice. Couple that with an anime scene where they say that the armor is fairly standard, but you see it fighting at super speed. You throw out the specs again and just keep the cool feat in. Animation is key.
The latter weapon sounds terrible though. I guess I’d take it, but I like for my weapon to look cool and flashy. It’s why I paid 5.99 in Super Smash to unlock Cloud. I gotta have some flash.
First of all, that is completely biased and inaccurate to how power is actually deciphered.
You can’t just say one character is stronger than the other just by the animation. That leaves the strongest characters in NUMEROUS different mediums with a completely unfair and illegitimate disadvantage. The strongest characters in comics and other media were conceived long before both animation and entertainment illustrations reached their epiphany.
Of COURSE their going to look old and grimy. They were made before Goku even showed up on television! In fact, most were made before anime even developed the idea of creating the same battle visuals we’re used to seeing.
It’s unfair to give the edge with such ludicrous reasons. There are numerous characters that have proven their superiority to Goku time and time again. Flair alone is useless if the limit to their destructive capacity is lacking.
But hey, if your going to make a senseless battle blog, you’re going to wind up having senseless ways of differentiating power. It’s no wonder why your so-called “Ultimate Battle Blog” is viewed with such unorthodox comments. Luckily, there are some who regain their composure.
Second, I would destroy you with the other weapon if you were foolish enough NOT to pick it.
Third, Anime Iron Man showed FLIGHT speed, not combat speed. Get your facts in order, okay?
Plus, comic book Iron Man also takes the victory in that regard due to his newest armors possessing nano(-ish) technology, telepathic inhibitors, and even a hyper-velocity impact program that allows him to move and think on much faster time frame that his opponents. With the new upgrades he’s developed to this point, he must be even faster (though. he probably isn’t all the way at light speed).
Fourth, from the looks of it, Anime Iron Man is only capable of traveling faster than the speed of sound. He didn’t cover much in the times he was flying to put him above that.
It’s not just by the animation, but it is a key part. And yes, characters without a form of animation are absolutely at a disadvantage from the get go. It’s unfortunate, but just a side effect of their situation. Think of it like a grilled cheese burger. At first glance it may not seem like its the tastiest item on the menu, but you’ll eat it anyway because of the presentation. Also, people with visual feats typically are the strongest.
My blog does get a lot of…interesting comments. The weapons thing was interesting that’s for sure.
Can you see comic Iron Man doing this?
Anime Iron Man had combat speed and flight speed. He leaves his other interpretations in the dust. It’s the comic versions that always have a lot of flight speed, but look terrible in combat.
The Beyonder easily FODDERIZED a group of universal Celestials:
I already referenced that battle over by the Beyonder vs Goku thread. 😦
Goku easily took down the Ginyu Force
A group of Celestials are much more powerful.
No way. The Ginyu Force were taking on Vegeta and the Z Fighters. What hope do the Celestials have?
Can the Ginyu Force destroy universe’s? If so do you have scans of them doing so? Because I can show scans of celestials being universe busters.
Sure they can! I don’t have any scans or proof to back this up, but it makes sense if we power scale and stuff. The Celestials are too slow so they would never actually land a hit on the Ginyu Force.
Wow, you have the same logic in every one of these threads. Just watch this video:
@Archangel Seen this video before?
I have. It pleases me to know there are people in the world who are bringing the more obscure comic book characters to the attention of people.
I myself have developed a theory of my own speculating the origin of the Beyonder now.
You don’t fix what isn’t broken
@Dreager1 But you can revitalize and improve it.
Only if it’s not already perfect
Jesus Christ you’re pathetic. You’re Goku is a Gary Stu that can’t lose.
Goku can’t lose!
You’re an idiot. Beyonder Blinks entire DBZ gets wiped out of existence, you can shove your kamehameha stuff up somewhere, because thats what beyonder will be doing with gokus bad kamahameha.
Goku’s too strong!
Couldn’t he just make someone litterally stronger than goku? Like Superman, HIT ME WITH ALL THE HATE YOU GOT!
He couldn’t. Goku is too strong
You are a dumbass, think of the christian God,that is what the beyonder is in this case,by definition he cannot be beat.
Hey, no insults Sparky!
I like all of the posturing in that scan. He’s certainly not playing around!
And yet shows that he tanked an attack that could destroy billions of universes, where you said he tanked billions of universes exploding, which actually can be the same thing, but all of the exploding isn’t directed into one small area like that forced upon him, that attack there just proves that the kamehameha wouldn’t do anything to him considering he just laughed that off, and said himself that he cannot be beaten unless he allows it.
In border to destroy billions of universe you need a force or energy strong enough to do so, even if goku could destroy that many, lets say he can, the be yonder still laughed it off, the beyonder in marvels case is Gods equal, like God vs the devil, by definition he cannot be beat, gokubmay have fighting knowledge,and speed bit that doesn’t matter in a case where the beyonder can just sit as golu just pinches him, over and over again and it doesn’t do anything to him, not toention the scan was a weakened state as a side effect of his form, he was holding back.
Bottom line, goku cant defeat him, speed doesn’t matter in this case, he can tank a kamehameha, omnipotent beings are omnipotent because their power are limitless, only very few beings are omnipotent and haven’t shown any signs of not being able to do anything, the one above all doesn’t fight because he doesn’t need to, he really doesn’t even have real physical form
There’s a big difference between an attack that he claims would have destroyed billions of universes and one that actually took down Frieza. I’d take the Kamehameha any day of the week. The cosmic guys just love their hyperbole and grandiose statements. Trust me, Goku would be the one laughing as he brought on the pain. As you mentioned, TOAA barely even has a physical form so he gets stomped before the match even begins. You just can’t put these cosmic guys in the same ring as Goku. It’s so lopsided that it’s barely even fair
You really believe this stuff you’re saying, don’t you? Beings like the Beyonder and the One Above All don’t need physical forms, because they are not physical creatures, never were, while Goku is. Either of the two of them would simply have just even the tiniest thought about destroying the DBZ universe, like the smallest electron in their pinky finger, and it would be gone faster than your body’s reflex to blink.
Oh, and by the way, the whole scenario where Owen hit the Beyonder with an attack that would have destroyed a billion dimensions? The Living Tribunal is capable of that power, and even the appointed overseer of the Multiverse with help from the very being who fired said attack would not move against the Beyonder.
Absolutely and everyone needs physical forms if I’m being honest. You have to be able to fight or you’re gonna get schooled. It’s that simple. Goku is the man with a plan and as a physical fighter he can win with ease
If the one above all doesn’t have a physical form then there is nothing for goku to hit, goku would just be running around in circles trying to hit him with a kamehameha, but failing because all it is doing is just passing right through him like light passes through air.
and considering the attack shook universes while it was directed at the beyonder, then the attack can destroy those universes if it was spread out, if frieza was afraid of getting off planet namek from it exploding, then clearly at that point a planet exploding could kill the person, which means the force to destroy a planet would be enough to kill frieza during the namek saga, frieza wasn’t as powerful as you say during that time if he can’t tank a planet exploding, use logic and not just saying this person is more powerful just because i want this person to be more powerful. the beyonder had no reason to lie about the attack, omnipotent literally means no limits,there is nothing to stop the beyonder from just thinking in his head “i am invulnerable to goku’s attack” and it is now made so, considering it took microseconds to beat the celestials, he can think faster than light if he chooses, he can warp goku away as if goku was never born, there is nothing goku can do, it is like saying goku can defeat zeno
You can’t really go through energy blasts though so even if TOAA stays intangible to try to cheese Goku out of his win, he’ll end up getting tagged at some point. The instant he turns tangible, same thing happens. There’s no way for him to actually win the match.
Goku Can defeat Zeno though. Zeno is pure hype, he’d get speedblitzed within seconds by Goku and just wouldn’t put up much of a fight in general. Goku is way more powerful than Zeno could ever be and that’s honestly the sad part here. Zeno just wouldn’t be able to do much to stop Goku. As for the Beyonder, again you can’t warp away people into nonexistence if they don’t want that to happen. You can’t turn invincible either, stuff like that just doesn’t happen even if the characters wish for it. As for the planet busting thing, keep in mind that Frieza would have survived the destruction of the planet.
you don’t know anything about warping people away then, just because they don’t want that happen, it has been done before and it is possible whether the person wants it or not, or the power shouldn’t work in the first place, then by your logic goku isn’t invincible either meaning he can be warped away or killed, so zeno can take out goku if he pleases,spleedblitz doesn’t work if you have complete invulnerability, infinite power means you can take infinite damage and survive that is just how that works.
the whole idea of warping people away is so you can take care of someone easily, if the beyonder wants to warp goku away then it will happen
The power just doesn’t work well like that. You can maybe move them a slight distance or something but you can’t warp them into a Sun or stuff like that. I think you’re heavily underestimating will power tbh. I still don’t see how Zeno can keep up either. He’s not nearly as fast as Goku and Goku is also a lot stronger. Zeno isn’t invincible so Goku would be piling on the damage.
The One Above All is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscience, which makes him the entirety of the Marvel Multiverse. Tangible? Goku might as well be trying to destroy ALL of Marvel if you want him to stand even the tiniest fraction of a chance to kill the God of Marvel.
Goku can destroy all of Marvel though
Goku, destroy all of Marvel? Please. A Celestial or a Skyfather at full power is enough to deal with him, and multiple Celestials were easily defeated in mere moments by the Beyonder.
Ha, shows what you know about Goku’s speed! The Celestials are so slow that they wouldn’t even be able to comprehend the fact that they were destroyed until minutes after the fact. They were doomed from the start
You do realize that the Celestials were making millions of moves in the few seconds it took for the Beyonder to defeat them, right? Slow, my ass. They operate on a level of existence far superior to anyone in DBZ. Odin at his most powerful could create and destroy entire galaxies, and his power combined with that of two other Skyfathers couldn’t even injure a single Celestial.
Odin gets wrecked by randos whenever he manages to fight in the films and shows. Goku could laugh while taking down Odin and wouldn’t break a sweat. The millions of moves in a second thing makes me laugh. Marvel likes to talk tough in the narraration bubbles during a fight, but it’s all hyperbole, that’s all it is.
even watch this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUOJt5laVc0
Never seen that one before. I somehow get the feeling that they believe Goku would lose to the cosmic beings though
Yes they think he stops at odin, which i can give him the benefit of the doubt and say that he can beat odin, but reality warpers/cosmic beings are cosmic fora reason they can do literally anything they want, they do the math and HIGHBALL goku, making him stronger than he really should be
Well, the video sounds a little more legit than I was expecting. I definitely disagree on the cosmic guys part, but I’m glad they at least admit that he’d give Odin a run for his money. That was before SSJ Blue and the new SSJ SSJ Blue too so by now Goku would really shred those guys.
if Odin would give goku a run for his money then beyonder would be able win against goku,in the video they showed super saiyan blue, so what do you mean before super saiyan blue?
Odin can already take on goku high balled with a even match, beyonder is infinitely more powerful than Odin, infinite means infinite there is nothing more powerful than that, by definition nothing excedes it, goku would need infinite power which has been shown that he does not, until he shows that in a feat that he has true infinite power, then it isn’t true, it has to be shown that it can happen, the beyonder already showed that he has infinite power
I said I’m glad that they at least admit to Odin. I personally think Goku would stomp him in base form. I hadn’t seen the video yet so I just assumed they hadn’t made it to that part at the moment. Beyonder doesn’t have true infinite power. I don’t know how to convince you by this point on that but nobody has infinite power or unlimited speed. It’s just impossible.
For future reference for all of you… the Beyonder isn’t omnipotent.
Many think he is, but he is not.
He’s close, but not quite at that point.
In his Beyond Realm, yes.
In another reality, no.
He’s still a heavier hitter though.
I definitely agree that he’s not omnipotent. Beyonder is certainly really strong though
Dude you are Lit you have been defending goku vs the beyonder until 2015. Now that goku has Ultra intinct he can definitly beat the beyonder.
Absolutely! I gotta keep defending Goku on behalf of all DBZ fans. With Ultra Instinct it will definitely be a breeze for him to win
I read everything you said from 2015 to 2017 and I gotta say. you defended Goku like he is your life, that was awsome.I also agree that goku would destroy Beyonder even now that he has Ultra instinct. But i couldn’t help but notice you didnt bring up super saiyan god super saiyan. Because thats what goku has now. You should have bringed that up then they would all shut up.
I knew I had to defend Goku because he has really done a good job of proving that he is one of the best even if not everyone can admit this. I probably should bring up SSG Goku more. I feel like he wasn’t out at the time or something though, but for any new replies I’ll definitely have that at the ready
My God, the guy who started this blog is so stupid, even retards
seem actually more intelligent.
There is NOTHING, NOTHING that Goku can do that would even cause the Beyonder to have even the slightest change in microexpression. Even if all the most powerful characters in the DBZ verse were Fusion Danced into one being with all their collective power, the Beyond Realm, the infinite realm in which the Beyonder is the creator, sole authority, and sole inhabitant, is so large that the entire Marvel Multiverse is just a drop in the sea compared to it. There is nothing Goku and the others can do to hurt him, as even the Living Tribunal, the One Above All’s created protector of balance of the Multiverse, would not even fight the Beyonder even when the rest of the Elders of the Universe such as Uatu the Watcher and Eternity himself himself stood by its side, instead choosing to talk him down from his decision to destroy Death, and this was the Beyonder severely weakened from pouring a large amount of his powers into the cup from which Death had to drink. If even in such a weakened state the most powerful cosmic entities in existence, entities capable of altering the universe to their will, would not even fight the Beyonder, what chance does Goku have?
NOTHING! The Beyonder would shrug off Goku’s most powerful Spirit Bomb or Kamehameha like a man shrugs off the dust on his shoulder, and then destroy the DBZ verse out of spite with only the smallest of thoughts while sparing Goku so he can mourn the loss of his world.
Even a child throwing rocks at a tank the size of a castle would have more chance of success than Goku defeating the Beyonder. This is the fact you need to get into that dumb head of yours.
Plz understand, we’ve been through this. Goku would effortlessly pummel Beyonder to death
No, he would not, and that is what you fail to understand. The Beyonder’s power dwarfs that of the Living Tribunal’s, and he can bolster his own physical capabilities to such an extent that he can lift the Marvel Multiverse if he wanted to. Furthermore, the Beyonder has no true physical body, as he is merely a consciousness in command of unlimited energy, and if he willed it, then all of Goku’s attacks, hell, all of DBZ’s most powerful attacking him at the same time would literally just go right through him. Spirit Bomb? Kamehameha? He wouldn’t even need to tank them, even if it was the mother of all Kamehamehas. In fact, he could just absorb the energy, magnify it a thousand times over with his own powers, and release it back at everyone, and he would do all of this with a bored expression on his face.
Beyonder got wrecked by Iron Man recently in a TV show so I’m still doubtful. His abilities are great, but I’ve seen little to suggest that he would be a match for Frieza, let alone Goku. Goku is just on a whole different level if you ask me.
We’re talking about Pre-Retcon Beyonder here. Just how thick is that skull of yours? And what is your brain made of, chull dung? There is absolutely nothing Goku or Frieza can do to him. Nothing is being too generous a word, in fact; even if the most powerful characters Fusion Danced with him, and he could tap into the all the energies of the universe, and then blasted the Beyonder with a Kamehameha fueled by that level of unparalleled power from the DBZ universe, the most Goku would do is elicit an eyeroll from the Beyonder and divert a stray thought to completely eradicate him from existence faster than Goku could react. Then, out of pure spite for disturbing him, he’d implode the DBZ universe. And the Iron Man feat was a retconned story based on a purposefully severely weakened version of the Beyonder, because the writers had started inserting the One Above All as the absolute power of the Multiverse. You fail to comprehend the unlimited power of the Beyonder, which has been expounded upon all throughout The Secret Wars II.
Understand this: no matter what you say or think, no version of Goku will even have a fraction of a sliver of a hope of a chance of defeating Pre-Retcon Beyonder. That is the truth of it, and if you argue otherwise, you are just a sad DBZ fan who is upset his favorite character cannot defeat one of the most powerful characters ever created in any fiction.
My skull is thick enough to protect me from insults. Now lets get serious. Pre-Retcon Beyonder is okay, but he’s no Goku. You really overestimate his actual abilities and I’m here to tell you that they really aren’t that impressive. Goku would beat the Beyonder without even turning Super Saiyan so how do you like them apples? Beyonder just isn’t in the same league as Goku or even remotely in the same class. Goku is one of the strongest beings in all of media after all and he got that power through earnest training, not being born into it. Goku is huuuuuuge when it comes to firing off Kamehameha waves and the like. Beyonder may want to sit this one out.
Dude, stop. Your stupidity was entertaining before, but now it’s just downright irritating, and I think I can speak for a few here when I say that it’s beginning to piss us off.
There is no possibility, no instance, and absolutely no scenario where even the most powerful version of Goku could defeat the weakest version of the Beyonder. Goku is only multigalactic; classic Beyonder is literally above multiversal. He can empower his strength and speed to levels Goku cannot even begin to emulate. He transcends time and space, and has no physical body Goku can harm, as he is merely the consciousness that represents a realm that dwarfs all of Marvel.
Say whatever you want in reply to this, but know that by virtue of the multitude of feats that has been commented here in favor of the Beyonder are feats far above anything all of DBZ combined is capable of.
Personally I think you’re just speaking for yourself on this one. As you mentioned, I get a free reply here where I can say anything so I would like to quickly mention why Goku is the best. He actually managed to move FTL back in the early Z days. How can you beat that?
Does Goku even need Ultra Instinct “Omen”? KaiokenX20 Super Saiyan Blue should be more than enough to win this fight. Beyonder has some good feats, but not good enough to defeat the ultimate Saiyan.
Signed, Super Dark Shadow.
I don’t think so. I agree that SS Blue would be enough here and he may not even need that. Beyonder just isn’t even in the same league
I have heard of walls of text, but this is ridiculous. How can Beyonder hope to win? Goku is simply too strong at this point. One way Goku could end this quickly would be to use the Mafuba. With that
having been said, what could The Beyonder do after that? Beg Goku for mercy?
Signed, Super Dark Shadow.
When did Iron Man wreck The Beyonder? I want to see that, if possible.
Signed, Super Dark Shadow.
It was in the final episode of the Secret Wars arc of Avengers Assemble. I was checking Youtube, but I don’t think it’s up yet. You should be able to find it online though
How long will this debate go on? Is there simply no end to the replies? It’s crazy how much attention this thread gets.
Signed, Super Dark Shadow.
This is definitely one of those threads that basically goes on forever. It’s such a classic match up
goku mastered ultra instinct and even more powerful in the universe that he can best beyonder
Agreed, Goku’s just too strong!
Only current beyonder, not pre retcon
Pre retcon beyonder just sits in some other universe he created or whatever he wants and just thinks about goku being gone and goku is gone.
It doesn’t work like that. I could go into Burger King and start wishing that their burgers wouldn’t come with sesame seeds on top, but that wouldn’t solve the issue. I have to actually take the top bun off. Similarly if Beyonder wants to beat Goku he’ll have to do the job himself as opposed to just wishing for it
That is literally how pre retcon beyonders works, if he wants something it just simply happens. He doesn’t need to fight, he can snap his fingers or wave his hand and an entire universe because he is a HIGH tier reality warping, surpassed the living tribunal and was right under what is essentialy “God” level power, not god but God
I’m not sure if I can really buy into that though. Sure, the Beyonder is a cosmic fighter, but he still has limits. He can’t wish away a fighter as powerful as Goku. It simply wouldn’t work and I’m not saying that just because I’m a big Goku fan. I’m looking at it objectively.
Especially since what you are saying right there is like saying Zeno shouldn’t be able to just snap his fingers and a universe goes poof,but yet he has clearly done it.
Right, Zeno can’t do that. Most likely the Grand Priest is quickly blowing it up and Zeno doesn’t realize it or something. Perhaps he timed it so well that other fighters had blown it up and he just took the credit.
The point s till stands, you are saying that goku would be able to be unaffected by the grand priest just simply destroying him, it is like saying goku can survive hakai, when it was said that it can destroy literally anything.
Goku could survive Hakai. Just look at how Vegeta simply punched it away. That level of energy is not enough to take down someone like Goku.
It actually sounds like a goku fan, what the beyonder basically does is the equivalent of a hakai or zeno erasure, more so the grand priests as you say since it doesn’t require energy at all, or in this case you are saying it is likely the grand priest, goku has potential, yes he can grow in power, but this power doesn’t mean anything, it is only KI energy, this only gives him superhuman abilities, increased striking and lifting strength, speed and KI manipulation.
The beyonder isn’t a fighter, he doesn’t need to fight, at least pre retcon beyonder, he just does things, he doesn’t wish anything away he warps reality which gets around high energy or strength opponents, KI doesn’t involve warping reality it doesn’t allow a defense of reality manipulation like that. you aren’t looking at what KI is capable of and what it isn’t.
I am a Goku fan I think. Hakai is good, but it can’t go past a good Kamehameha. The Saiyans always have the edge since the reality warping shenanigans just won’t work on an opponent of this level. Lets just be honest here, Goku’s on a whole different level.
Because it was hakai energy, destruction energy, energy itself can manipulated, it is just a glorified KI blast, it can be resisted, the hakai abilitiy just simply destroys whatever the use wants. KI doesn’t provide the resistance to something like that. KI enhances the user physically, it gives strength and physical durability to energy blasts and punches and kicks, that is all it does, physical enhancement it doesn’t do anything beyond that.
Physical enhancement is all that you need. Put it this way, by enhancing his body and defenses, Goku is able to protect himself from harm. This includes harm from any possible direction or from any possible attack. Even those of the reality warping variety. When you consider all of this, it shows that Goku really might just be the strongest character alive, not counting Bass of course.
omg youre dumb. the beyonder is OMNIPOTENT. he doesnt even need to fight goku to win, he can think goku out of existence. The beyonder has INFINITE power and CANT die. Goku is NO where close to ever being able to kill the beyonder. Gokus attacks dont matter. The Beyonder can only be hurt if he allows his opponents to hurt him. This is the dumbest thing ive seen all year on this website. The beyonder doesnt need to FIGHT or HARM goku to win, BECAUSE THE BEYONDER IS OMNIPOTENT, now get that through that thick skull of yours and accept that a literal omnipotent being could kill your overrated anime character.
Goku’s power is far closer to that of the Beyonder. He has THE kamehameha wave at HIS disposal. This means THAT a single shot will be ENOUGH to destroy the entire world. Maybe EVEN the entire galaxy. The Beyonder doesn’t stand a GHOST of a chance here.
The beyonder has the same powers of Goku plus his omnipotence, and Iḿ talking about pre recton Beyonder, With Omnipotence, the Beyonder has every power possible. Goku might have more of a chance against Post recton beyonder though. Plus, the beyonder doesnt even need any sort of special attack to destroy a galaxy, he can destroy a whole mulitverse just by thinking about it. Heres a way the beyonder can kill goku without wishing him out of existence. Since the beyonder is OMNIPOTENT, he has an ability called Omnimimicry, which is the ability to copy ANYONES power, so, if the beyonder even wanted to put up a fight against goku, hed just copy his powers and eventually, goku will get tired of fighting, and the beyonder will win, due to his unlimited stamina. Now, ive read through quite alot of comments on this thread of actual sensible people with good arguments make their point, but you, due to your heavy bias for goku, disregard the FACTS that they present you with, and say goku can somehow kill an omnipotent entity. Im not even really confused anymore because clearly this is a troll thread. You cant be serious about this.
Copies will never beat the original. The Beyonder can try to emulate Goku all day but it simply won’t do him a lick of good. Goku is in a far higher level of power than the Beyonder will ever be. He simply can’t copy that level of power because his body wouldn’t be able to hold it all together. Now that’s real power!
but the beyonder wouldnt need to even copy gokus power because HE LITERALLY HAS EVERY POWER YOU COULD THINK OF. your reply to this is going to be the dumbest stuff like ¨oH gOkU iS JuSt ToO sTrOnG¨ or some dumb stuff like that. youve literally been arguing about this for years and fail to use actual common sense because its clouded by all of that goku fanboyness. Im done with this.
Oh, but Goku is just too strong!
WAIT NO IVE FALLEN FOR THE BAIT. GOD YOURE GOOD AT TROLLING.
Why Yes I am! /s
oh, and in a blog saying bass was the strongest character in all of fiction, you said this ¨Well most other power copyers are a lot more limited than Bass’s. Bass gets to keep the opponent’s powers added to his own. Plus he has the advantage of starting out with his strongest forms. Plus Bass can get someone’s abilities by
A. Absorbing them (In other words destroying them or zapping them)
B. Getting his body obliterated for an instant
C. Getting badly injured
D. Grabbing Them¨
Now, take note of everything you said above. THE BEYONDER LITERALLY HAS THE SAME POWERS AS BASS. HE CAN COPY ANYONES POWER THE SAME WAY BASS CAN. And since you said bass can beat goku, since beyonder can do the same thing as Bass, the beyonder could beat Goku too. case closed.
Beyonder’s abilities aren’t as good as Bass. Show me a scan of the Beyonder copying the abilities of a really strong fighter and using them. I don’t recall such a moment and his normal stats aren’t even close to Goku’s.
plus, goku only has superhuman level stamina, so even if the beyonder chose to fight him, goku would eventually become tired, and the beyonder would win, due to the beyonders UNLIMITED stamina. Lmao the 39 percent of people that voted goku would beat the beyonder are all butthurt goku fans who only base their arguments off of their opinion rather than actual logic and facts.
Goku doesn’t get tired so easily. He could keep fighting all day and by then the Beyonder will simply be a memory. Forgotten til the ends of time!
ok this is not a contest those who say that goku wins have a serious problem first, do not know what is the concept of omnipotence? Do you not know how many infinite universes there are in Marvel? don’t you know how powerful the abstract gods are? and yet they don’t know who is pre retcon beyonder
Trust me, when you’re this level of abstract then it actually doesn’t help you. Instead it means that the characters are completely lacking in feats and that’s what really hurts here
plus, goku cant even leave his own universe, the beyonder is an omniversal being, so he could kill goku without even entering his universe.
I’d like to see him try such a thing
Goku will eventually get tired and the beyonder will win
I don’t think the Beyonder would last long enough for stamina to be a factor
The beyonder can warp reality
Yes but Goku can break it
How does he break reality warping?
Well, Goku can break reality. Beyonder can warp it around a lot and all, but in the end it will all fall before Goku’s ultimate Kamehameha wave!
Goku can’t break reality and beyonder can survive things stronger than the khamehama wave
Nothing is stronger than the Kamehameha wave. I have a hard time believing that the Beyonder could stand up to such unrivaled power
He survived an attack that could destroy billions of universes when has the khamehama wave done that
So we have to go around the bend here to answer that one. Cell’s Kamehameha back in the Cell Saga was enough to wipe out the Solar System and that was around SSJ2 level. Since then Goku got SSJ3 which is 4X that. Then he trained and all so in Super his base form is around as strong as the old SSJ3. From there you do all the multiples again until you hit Super Saiyan Blue where you add more multiples. Then you include the zenkai boosts and go through them all again til you get to Kaio Ken Blue and then finally you get into Ultra Instinct. Multiply the Kamehameha by that and it’s the strongest attack out there
If you could measure the separation of universes via distance, like the multiverse is one big universe and every galaxy represents a universe, Beyonder would be on one end of the universe just sitting in a chair on a mountain while watching a sunrise and contemplating his existence, and Goku would be on the other end of the universe. Now it is quite obvious that Goku is unable to leave his universe without possessing an insane amount of power, while the Beyonder can and has strolled through the multiverse as easily and as casually as one takes a stroll through a park. It is also shown that he can and has destroyed entire dimensions at whim and without effort, and sometimes even unintentionally, merely by having the inner turmoil of an existential crisis. Beyonder, without leaving his chair or moving any part of his body, would simply think “I no longer wish for the Dragonball universe to exist”, and it becomes reality. It happens so instantaneously, even the thought proccessing speed of someone with the Speed Force is not anywhere near as fast. Goku is simply erased along with his universe, and the Beyonder would not even be the slightest bit anywhere near it. No amount of Spirit Bombs, Kamehamehas, levels of Ultra Instinct, or whatever you want to give him within the Dragonball universe will save him. His interstellar physical prowess and energy attacks mean quite literally nothing against the will and might of a being the appointed overseer of the Marvel Multiverse along with aid from multiple cosmic beings would not even dare raise a hand against.
If you argue further without even providing solid and actual logical reasoning based on shown feats but inatead go into “superhyped ultrawanking mode” of what your favorite anime character has done, then all such arguments coming from you at that point are considered the words of a highly illogical and completely unreasonable fanwanker who cannot even provide non-existent levels of feats to back up his extremely ridiculous claims.
Think of it this way, Beyonder is a traveler while Goku is a fighter. Beyonder can travel across universes with ease and he talks a good game, but he’s no fighter. His hand to hand skills are mediocre at best and he’s not used to fighting really strong opponents. If this was a game of shogi then I would defer to Beyonder and his abilities, but he’s no Goku. Goku can shatter dimensions as seen in the new Broly film and once they are together in the same space there is no way that the Beyonder can win. The gap in their abilities is simply too great and the cosmic being will be taking a Kamehameha to the face. He can’t react to such an attack nor can he endure it.
And yet again, your ignorance astounds me. The Beyonder has casually and effortlessly wiped out more dimensions than the entire Dragon Ball universe will ever encounter. Kamehameha? The Beyonder has was hit with blasts that would make even the most powerful attacks ever shown in the anime or the manga look like a kid making waves in a swimming pool, and all it did was piss him off.
Enough with your fanwanking and show me actual feats of anyone in the Dragon Ball universe throwing attacks that would actually hurt the Beyonder. I and many others here have shown and cited you several of the Beyonder’s, and the burden of proof is upon you to provide solid evidence instead of hypothetical, non-existent levels of powerscaling. No superior fighting abilities, no Kamehameha, no Spirit Bomb, no speedblitzing, and nothing else you can hype up to unreasonable levels. Show me and everyone else here a feat of Goku or anybody performing an attack that is multi-universal at the absolute least.
It shows you multi-universal feats as Broly and Gogeta blast each other with enough force to enter whole different realities. Beyonder would instantly be crushed when faced with such overwhelming power. Trust me, I say this as a Beyonder fan and even I don’t think he could survive this level of pounding. He’s simply outmatched at this point. Goku and the other Z fighters have attained a level that he simply can’t follow. What’s even scarier is the fact that the characters continue to get stronger and stronger as time goes on. By the end of the franchise I’m thinking that we won’t even recognize them. That’s the scary potential of the Saiyans. So, here are the actual feats. Now you can see once and for all why Goku is far stronger than the Beyonder.
and that is impressive? the beyonder literally tanked a blast that would have destroyed several billion dimensions. breaking into a whole different dimension is different than destroying it outright. it requires a lot less power. even if you power scale that since gogeta was having quite an easy time against broly after going blue, it would require more power than even gogeta or MUI goku can dish to even hurt the beyonder.
That feat was pretty impressive for the Beyonder, but keep in mind that Gogeta and Broly did this casually through combat. If they actually charged up to fire off a blast they would probably destroy all of reality. Beyonder is durable, but he doesn’t have the speed or power needed to really counter attack against Goku. Goku can also keep up the attacks so before long they will all add up and take the Beyonder down for the count
Jesus Christ nailed to the cross, that is not even anywhere near the level of power needed to defeat Eternity, the embodiment and consciousness of the universe, and the Beyonder just ignores him and everyone else like they’re not even a semblance of a threat to him.
Everyone here has said arguments and shown feats for how and why the Beyonder can defeat Goku and the entire DBZ Multiverse, and you still refuse to accept it for reasons unknown. I am tired of being civil and rational with you, so I will say that the reason you overhype Goku to levels he does not even reach is because I believe you’re an overweight sissy who constantly overrates Goku and the rest so hard, you overcompensate by targeting someone whom you know literally nothing about. Beyonder fan, yeah right. The only thing you know about the Beyonder is his name and nothing more. This is so just mind-numbingly pathetic on a level I have not seen since Archinist from SpaceBattles, and I would not be surprised if you were him.
You know what? I quit. Go enjoy your fantasies all you want, because that’s all they’ll ever remain, while I can retain actual logical rationality and see that the facts support my claims. I’m not even going to wish your day to be good, because you don’t deserve that courtesy anymore.
Goku has Super Saiyan tho
What the absolute deal can Super Saiyan and Ultra Instinct do against someone who could demolish the entire DB Multiverse with a thought as small as an atom? Final warning: either you show actual, unambiguous, solid, undeniable proof that Goku at his most powerful could fight on par with someone who makes the entirety of the Marvel Multiverse (a multiverse infinitely bigger than the DB Multiverse) and all its inhabitants look like a drop of water in an ocean, or you concede. Otherwise, you are officially a troll.
You’re heavily underestimating Goku here. Lets not forget that he has taken down Jiren in the past. Beyonder isn’t strong or fast enough to do much against Goku. At best he can try to prolong the fight by hiding in a pocket dimension or something, but he just doesn’t have the skills needed to actually secure a win here
This storm of stupidity is actually still ongoing? I feel like laughing at the sheer absurdity of it.
That being said, Goku does not even begin to have a sliver of a hope of a chance against the Beyonder. Since you’re so proud of speed and energy blasts and whatnot, let’s look at what the Beyonder has done.
Speed: The Beyonder slightly lamented the fact that Boom-Boom and the others could not see that he was trading millions of blows PER second against the Celestials. Goku at his absolute fastest isn’t even anywhere near that fast. I’ll stop it at here.
Durability: Owen Reece blasted the Beyonder with attacks that would have destroyed billions of dimensions, and the Beyonder was at best caught off-guard because he had showed up to apologize to Owen; the situation was quickly turned in his favor, and Owen was literally only spared because of his girlfriend’s begging, to which he reacted by breaking down and amusing the Beyonder. I’ll stop it at here.
Power: By his conflicted thoughts alone, the Beyonder unintentionally and effortlessly destroyed entire dimensions. He granted Rachel Summers the full power of the Phoenix Force, the embodiment of all life in the universe, and then when he decided to destroy the multiverse, she tried to use that power against him, only to be swatted aside and choked to near death. I’ll stop it at here.
Knowledge: The Beyonder is not truly omniscient, but he has an extremely high level of cosmic awareness, once responding to Peter mentioning his name while the former was arguing with Puma, and was even aware that Mephistopheles built the Beyondersbane to kill him, and he didn’t move from his spot because he wanted to see if it would work. I’ll stop it at here.
I mean, I can post more categories, or list more citations, particularly the ones everyone else is mentioning, but that would be too long, and they’ve already said it; it’s up to you whether or not to read it and process it, and then accept it.
You could make everyone in the DBZ Multiverse as powerful as Zeno, and have them all speedblitz and spam kamehamehas and spirit bombs, and the Beyonder would just be annoyed and think for them to be erased from existence, which will then happen, as that is how powerful he is. Proceds and accept that fact, because this stuff is starting to get tiring.
Look, I’ll grant you that the Beyonder is pretty powerful. As you mentioned he does have some pretty reasonable skills. Goku is just a lot faster and stronger though
Speed and strength matters not to someone who can invent entirely new levels of both and place himself at the top, then create another set of levels to surpass those and once again place himself at the top, and he can repeat this process indefinitely. Goku is literally no different than an atom to the Beyonder. No amount of speedblitzing, physical overpowering, Fusion Dancing, or energy attacks will even leave the slightest mark on him unless he allows it to happen. The Big Bang is on a level of power more than Goku at his most powerful will ever wield, and attacks that could easily dwarf it only annoyed the Beyonder. Attacks on levels of reality that shook the entirety of the Marvel Multiverse (a multiverse infinitely larger than all og Dragon Ball) along with everyone and everything in it could not kill him. Your belief is literally the embodiment of a big fish in a little pond, and this right here is the ocean. So the burden of proof is upon you to show that Goku can defeat someone like the Beyonder, and the proof you show must be undeniable and consistent to the story. Do anything otherwise, such as repeating previous statements that have already been debunked, and you are merely debating in bad faith.
Look, I never like to repeat points, but I think you’re forgetting that Goku is massively faster than light. Beyonder can’t hope to keep up with him in terms of combat speed or even pure power. The gap in their abilities is simply too vast and that’s going to be a very big problem for this cosmic being. Reality warping/reality wiping is great, but not really relevant to combat
You have been warned several times to provide actual evidence to back up your claims, and you failed to deliver every single time while repeatedly attempting to downplay the other side’s capabilities. You are now officially a troll, and every claim or argument you make from this moment forward, even if you manage to show proof to support them, no longer bears any credibility.
If I’m sunk even with proof then this could get pretty tricky
Sorry bud but the Beyonder wins. You have not shown any feats that would lead us to believe that Goku would stand a chance.
People arguing for Beyonder have shown feats and actual facts. You constantly try to down play one side and to be honest, it’s pathetic.
I’m glad you’re being honest because that is the best way to debate. That being said…..Beyonder isn’t ready to take on someone like Goku
Just admit that Beyonder uses DBZ as toilet paper.
I want to admit that, but then I remember all of the great Goku feats!
His feats are laughable compared to the Beyonders feats.
Disagree on that, Goku’s had a lot better actual combat feats. He’s actually fought at real high speeds
Combat feats mean nothing to The Beyonder. He can’t lose unless he allows himself to lose. Goku would actually be less than and atom to the Beyonder and would be stepped on. Use actual feats and not Fan-boy nonsense.
Combat feats always matter though. There’s no such thing as a character who can’t lose and that’s the thing that I need to get the Beyonder fans to understand
Gokus best feat was shaking a Universe. Meanwhile The Beyonder causes Multiversal wide destruction in anger. The Beyonder would literally wipe out DB franchise if you got mad.
Goku sucks. The Beyonder would be doing everyone a favor when he opens a Black Hile in his face.
The Beyonder wasn’t using focused attacks though and isn’t ready for the kind of pressure Goku brings. It’s like how an NFL kicker can kick the ball across an entire football field but during a field goal the range goes way down. With Goku whailing away at him the Beyonder would turn tail and run
He made all powerful Cosmic Entities coward at his presence. Those same Cosmic Entities would Obliterate the DB franchise like it’s a chore. Goku can’t destroy Billions of Dimensions and his shaking of the Universe feat dosent make him Universal. Your DB characters don’t stand a chance against Marvel and DC characters so stop putting them against each other..
Hard disagree, that just proves that these cosmic beings aren’t all that brave. They bought into the hype and ended up paying for it.
Your logic stands out really bad.
The Beyonder made Cosmic Entities that would solo DB coward at his feet. Goku would get slapped around by a couple of celestials.
Use actually feats for you characters and stop wanking them.
Creating other characters is still not a sign that you yourself are super powerful. I could still never get myself to agree with that logic
Man, this is why DB is mocked so much. Ridiculous fans like you wank their characters and just become an annoyance to people that actually use facts.
Goku is way stronger than Beyonder though. That’s what I’ve been trying to tell people
Goku: can’t breathe in space and was hurt by a laser
Beyonder: tanked an attack that would have destroyed billions of dimensions and caused Multiversal wide destruction
Honestly, you defending Goku just proves overall how much of an annoyance DB fans are. You are giving them a bad name. There is really no point in tarnishing a franchise and it’s fan base. You have proved over and over again that that DB sucks. You honestly can’t change that mindset either because random people see stuff like “Goku can beat the living tribunal” and the first thing that people think is “wow, these people are idiots”. The worst thing is, not all DB fans are like you. Some actually honor DB and other franchises and don’t do what you do. Before you type stuff like the stuff you’ve been typing just think about fan base and if this version of DB is the one you want to be projecting to other people.
I always make sure to do the DBZ fanbase proud and I’m sure most of them would agree that Goku wins there. Tell me, what’s Beyonder going to do against a quick Meteor Combo? Nothing is the correct answer
Not only do you claim that you make the DB fan base proud, you also have the audacity to claim you encompass how all DB fans act. Some DB fans actually act right and respect other franchises and dont act stuck up like you.
Goku can’t even breathe in space, why do people think he is so special. Everyone else has accepted that Goku isn’t the strongest in all of fiction. That phase has passed. Yet you for some reason are still stuck in the past.
Dude, I am the DBZ fanbase!
Goku has limits. He can’t even breathe in space and when caught off guard he can be hurt by the most simple attacks like lasers.
Beyonder can’t be hurt and only loses when he wants to lose. He has no limits whatsoever and transcends space and time.
Goku gets ultrarolfstomped into the deepest darkest parts of oblivion.
Goku has limits but they’re so high up that they never become a factor. He can crush the Beyonder with a single hit and that’ll be the end of that.
Why are people still debating this? Goku has stats over the roof while Doctor Doom utterly crushed The Beyonder, heck, he even defeated The BeyonDERS, the creators of The Beyonder, who make him look like a child unit, which they have even stated. Goku can kill The Beyonder in several different ways while even if Goku let The Beyonder kill him, it would still take him several DAYS just to land a good attack on him, but The Beyonder would eventually tire, giving Goku the upper edge. Goku stomps this matchup quite hard.
Agreed, Goku really wipes the floor with the Beyonder. Goku’s never lost to someone far below his station like that and the good thing about the Saiyans is aside from their crazy energy/physical feats they also have their hand to hand skills to fall back on. Ultimately this puts them in a really good spot to win most fights
Name one time Goku destroyed Billions of Dimensions. Just one time.
Remember that time Cell destroyed a solar system? Goku is thousands of times stronger than him and that’s without multipliers
You obviously have only watched DB and not read a single comic with Beyonder. It’s a simple fact that The Beyonder let Doom steal his powers because he wanted to see what he was able to do with them.
The Beyonders took on people that made Zeno look like nothing. It’s sad that you give into the garbage Dreager1 spews.
Yo, I just be speaking facts here
It’s not garbage if it’s true. And yes, I do watch DBZ? What’s wrong with that again? Goku is one of the strongest beings in media as a whole, him alone can easily solo all of Marvel and DC at once with mild difficulty, more annoyance than difficulty as Thor and Sentry would last longer than most of the cosmic entities. Anyway, Goku has absolutely no limits, While The Beyonder does, there has been tons of times in comics where he was depressed to the point of Suicide, and if he was Omnipotent, he would be able to erase himself from existence, which he couldn’t do. Doctor Strange said he could beat him if he wanted to, but chose not to, it’s actually in the comics. And Goku is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>x94905309438953498589345 stronger than Doctor Strange in every way. You tell me who wins.
Besides, Goku has taken down people that make The Beyonder look like thin air. A single kamehameha should obliterate him quite easily. Kamehamehha has stomped people far stronger than The Beyonder, it should have no problem taking The Beyonder down.
I’m not playing your stupid games.
Show me one time Goku destroyed billions of dimensions.
Remmber when just by punching with Beerus Goku almost ended the entire universe? Now think about what that means for the dimensions
It’s obvious your just another salty Marvel hater. You can’t combat other people’s arguments so you wank your favorite character to help them win.
It’s really pathetic and unnecessary and it’s proof your egotistical and have to be right all the time even when your clearly wrong.
Beyonder stomps, but you and JordyPrestoo148 can keep living in your delusional fantasy worlds while everyone else lives in reality.
Goku stomps Beyonder though. We’ve already been over this many times
Once again you can’t combat other people’s arguments and you wank as a result. You can’t handle losing because you think your always right. That’s called being a loser.
I think you’re mixing us up here. I’m the one giving the fact based arguments…
Welp. It’s obvious you can’t combat other people’s arguments. So Beyonder stomps unless you have cold hard facts.
I gave a lot of amazing facts though
No you don’t. Not at all. You ignore the blantly obvious for your own sake.
Trust me, the facts I give get pretty amazing half the time
Your just like Death Battle. No one takes you seriously but your idiocy makes you think that people don’t view you as a joke.
Heh, you got jokes!
Beyonder in his prime (not nerfed) can easily destroy any form of Goku. There are several ways do this. The most obvious one is by the Beyonder going back in time and killing him as a child. HE CAN GO BACK IN TIME. The Beyonder can just say the Goku should die and he dies. (Beyonder can really do that). Beyonder can just turn goku into something else like a bag of chips. Now I have read your counterarguments saying that he is fast and will be able to him with his punches. This cannot actually happen because he can basically manipulate with time itself and can see in the future so he will know where goku is would be before goku even thinks about moving furthermore the Beyonder can teleport out of the way. Lets say Goku somehow manages to hit him, it won’t do anything to him because it can just regenerate, now lets somehow say Goku lands enough punches or other attacks to make him run out of energy…… well HE CAN’T this is because he is immortal and God like abelites. This includes making energy out of thin air so he is virtually unstoppable. In his prime no one could stop him other than the One above all. He has now been nerfed by the writers so that is why several mortals have been able to beat him. Speaking of Mortals Goku is one. Beyonder can make do anything which then includes taking Goku’s Powers which the Beyonder has done before. Goku cannot stop this process just by saying no. The Beyonder is also omniscient which means he knows everything including how to beat him. Like I sated before there is several ways that the Beyonder could easily beat Goku. Another one is by him minupluating matter. This means he can destroys Goku’s cells and since it is in a molcuelr level he won’t know what is happening. Keep in mind he could do all of this at the same time. The easiet way of Beyonder defating Goku is by just erasing him from exsitince, Goku would not be able to stop this either no mantter how fast he ran because Beyonders thoughts become reality, and since he is omniscient he will know where he is at all times.
Beyonder is pretty tough but the whole wishing thing or going back in time to take Goku out when he’s a child just won’t be enough here. Going back to before the battle started wouldn’t fly in the battle. As for the speed, Goku would still be able to blitz the guy. Beyonder is pretty strong and fast to be sure but nowhere near Goku level. The guy’s been surprised by Iron Man in the past and has had a lot of limits. Goku’s combat speed and strength are on another level which is what makes him the victor here. No matter what the Beyonder tries I don’t see him being able to close the gap here.
The beyonder could just go back in time and kill Goku when he was a child bruhhhhh
Nah, time travel can’t stop Goku. Even if he stops kid Goku it won’t affect him in the present
I happened to come across this fourm out of pure curiosity and decided to read it for my own entertainment and was surprised for how long this post has been going on for despite the obvious outcome if the battle were to take place. As much as I love Dragon Ball as a series as it is one of the first media’s I’ve watched and the fact that my only experience with Marvel has been from the movies and how strong they are im going have to agree with Beyonder easily stomping goku no matter what form he has including ultra instinct. The thing with comic characters from Marvel or DC is that their characters limits become bullshit with how powerful the writters can make them Darksieds manipulation of the Omega effect can already beyond op ironically since it erases existences with one touch or use it to inflict unlucky individuals with the omega sanctum which is basically Gold Experience Requiem on crack, Swamp things connection to the green allowed him to control all life in existence, I’ve also been told he killed god to take control of the universe and create an absolute sanctuary for all life, John Constantine is already feared by the god of the DC universe, controls the house of mysteries which can survive the erasure off all creation while also driving anyone inside into pure insanity. Not to mention the stupidly overpowered cosmic entities he can summon such as the for mentioned presence who is the god of the DC universe, the phantom which is an extension of god and countless demons and deities. Lobo is banned from heaven and hell which is why he can never die and that was just on the DC side. Characters like Adam warlock and Dr.Strange who fought in a 1000 year war. Dreager1 will probably throw out any reason for the Beyonder being stronger as Goku can still beat him either way, its a trend I’ved notice. But first off how does time hax not kill goku he has time travelled before but that doesn’t mean he can survive being wiped from the timeline and second goku at his peak can at most destroy a universe even with ultra instinct.
Well with time travel Beyonder can destroy Goku’s past self but it won’t affect his present due to how the converging timelines work. Beyond that Goku’s just a whole lot stronger and faster than the Beyonder. It’s hard to really see him getting hit here or being dealt enough damage to really make a difference
The hell? How does Goku survive being killed in the past?
Because his past self would be from a past timeline at that point so it wouldn’t affect him in the present. That’s why Goku would continue to dominate
I wonder if at this point in life you still don’t realize how dumb you are in your “arguments”
the bright side is that it was clear to everyone that you were a troll
Goku would win though. I don’t know why everyone doesn’t just agree on that
maybe one day you will understand why you became a meme in the forums and absolutely no one takes you seriously.
Until then, he remains an ignorant troll.
Think about it though, Beyonder wishes he had the skills that Goku has…
I don’t need to think about anything, anyone who isn’t a stupid famboy and knows the 2 characters knows who would win, any internet forum you will see 99% betting on beyonder (because at the end of the day it’s not a bet, beyonder is neigh-omnipotent and has ALL the skills that exist thanks to this, continues with your troll, nobody cares anymore.
Yeah a lot of people do end up betting on Beyonder to win for some reason but when you look at the stats then Goku has him beat in both power and speed. There is no debate, I agree with you but in favor of Goku
Omnipotence (or neighborhood of omnipotence) grants all infinite attributes, which include infinite strength, speed and durability (but it doesn’t stop there, it also grants anything else like teleportation or any other power that can be imagined), Goku vs Beyonder is no it’s a game and you know it deep down, but try to defend yourself because in the end, you’re just a famboy who will try to use argumentative juggling to think it’s a fight.
I’m not here to try to convince anyone that this is not even a fight (because in addition to just one hit anyone on DBZ), I’m here to see if you get real and understand why you became a joke on the forums.
(This also applies to your ridiculous obsession with Bass, even pages of jokes about you and Bass were created)
Keep trolling, I’m retiring as everyone did and will continue to do when entering your blog and see this stuff.
Nah, imagination only goes so far. Beyonder can try to grant himself more power but he won’t be able to get enough to put him on an even playing field with Goku. That’s what is going to put him in a tough spot here
maybe if you weren’t a troll your forum would have been successful, but you’d rather ignore logic and be a famboy, it’s sad.
You don’t understand the basics of omnipotent beings or even power escalation.
Once a troll, always a troll.
There are no true omnipotent beings in fiction though. At best there are really strong guys with cosmic abilities but that’s about it. Goku would be able to wreck these guys
If I here this guy say the same awful feats with no proof I swear and if he says something like a solar system feat is above multiversal I will say the same marvel tarted things over and over to teach this guy a lesson I swear bro everyone here has been trying to convince you and he brings up A KAMEHAMEHA WILL OnE SHOt. Ndjbcuirnfiunfnvbnreungidwnedi I swear do it again bro and I’ll be just l8ke then you know what it feels like for tarted people to say the same thing bro xd
Goku could destroy a Solar System though. Cell said he could do it back in the Cell Saga and Goku has grown to be way more powerful than that over the years. He would be able to end all of creation with a single blast at this point. Beyonder wouldn’t be able to take a shot like that. The guy had trouble with Iron Man in the Avengers Assemble cartoon. You wouldn’t catch Iron Man taking shots at Goku like that
dude u have made the same arfument over and over im gonna teach you a lesson you use who is the strongest and fastest type of logic but when you get into marvel the question becomes who dimensional existence is higher whos multiverse is stronger? etc etc my point is logic hasnt expanded in dbz land its be the strongest in marvel you are beyond the concept of strong here sir im gonna explain this if i use ur logic of who is strongest and fastest multtiversal characters ruin this because they have infinite power so infinite stats meaning they will stalemate or win which is unfair but using which multiverse is stronger whos dimension is higher whne u ask these questions u get into outerversal characters and concepts which im gonna link this video to explain it since its very good https://youtu.be/MsdlkUFQPM4 this tier of power beyond infinite wher beyonder scales to goku scales in the universal category or multi universal maybe multi but i dont know but beyonder is in the outerversal tier btw whne watching the video realize that beyonder is above the concepts he explains in the video lmao here is a beyonder video explaining his power as well take these both in account once your ready please post proof that beyonder is lower then the level i said he was or explain how goku is higher thank you! im seriously trying to as nice as i can
I don’t buy into the dimensional existence stuff like that though. At the end of the day strongest and fastest is still how you win a fight. Whether you’re a 3D or 5D being, it’s all about your actual feats. So take Beyonder, he’s listed as one of those high beings but once he gets in the ring with Goku all that matters is how fast you can move and how hard you can hit. The Beyonder just won’t be strong enough to land the hits that really count and that’s what will really hurt him in this round
he is “famous” in forums by troll / stupidity, he does not know how to differentiate a drawing from a comic book much less knows how power scaling works
if you ask him, he will swear that Bass is the most powerful character in fiction (which is pathetic, since he would not be on a list of the 1000 strongest) he thinks that what he says makes sense and that only he is right.
He lives in a bubble.
Bass is the strongest of all time though. There is no character in media who even comes close to matching his awesome power. It’s part of why I like the guy. You always know that he is going to win whenever he gets into a fight
I’ve grown to realize that the reason this thread is not on Spacebattles, Comicvine, or any respectable site where competent debaters exist is because you know your delusional fantasies would not survive against so many people proving you wrong, and your ego cannot handle a loss of such scale. So I know you’ll just somehow find a way to twist this to fit your viewpoint, but Goku can be defeated by someone barely universal, while the Beyonder was stated to be millions of times more powerful than the entirety of the Marvel Multiverse, something he has proven time and again with several feats.
Ah, but you would obviously attempt to debunk me by cherry picking his weakest feats and painting those as all the Beyonder is only capable of. Goes to show just pathetic this whole “debate” is that you have to stoop so low in an effort to save face.
Then again, by now you’d be more than familiar with that notion, wouldn’t you? It suits you. And since we’re not in a proper debate site, there’s no rule protecting you from ad hominem. So go on and keep preaching your inane babble; I’ll gladly keep debunking it while insulting you at the same time. Not that you’d be aware you were insulted, given how thick-headed you obviously can be.
I’ve been winning this debate from the start tho? Look, Beyonder’s never done anything even close to Goku’s power level. Goku was strong enough to blow up a Solar System back in the Cell Saga. If we scale that up then there’s nothing he can’t destroy while the Beyonder’s been bested by Spider-Man and Iron-Man in the past. I feel like that’s evidence enough of his defeat