Isshiki Ōtsutsuki vs Darkseid

Suggested by iKnowledge Isshiki Ōtsutsuki is an incredibly powerful fighter who was even able to go up against heavyweights like Naruto and Sasuke. Darkseid is powerful but he’s just not in the same league here. He will have a difficult time reacting to Isshiki’s blows and would be completely overwhelmed in hand to hand combat. It’s no wonder why Isshiki has become known as one of the strongest characters in his verse, his stats are just too good. Isshiki Ōtsutsuki wins.

175 thoughts on “Isshiki Ōtsutsuki vs Darkseid

  1. Admittedly, I have not seen much material with Isshiki, but Darkseid is a threat to DC Comics’ good guys and gals for a reason. What is to stop Darkseid from disintegrating Otsutsuki with the Omega Beams and ending him if he sees fit? See [Final Crisis] for what he’s capable of, given how most of the time, he’s not in his ‘True’ state or form.

    • Yeah Isshiki is just a monster. His speed and power is absolutely insane. Put it this way, even a fully powered Naruto and Sasuke were getting overpowered by him which is crazy. I don’t think Darkseid would be able to catch him with any of the attacks

      • Once agian your wrong and once agian i have to explain it to you

        Darksied is a legit universal being, who is already strong enough to destroy planets.
        While isshiki has not shown any kind of strength like that. Nor any naruto character, maybe perhaps madara but it depends.

        Look this is isshiki’s arsenal
        -chakra rods
        -isshiki’s dojutsu eye(aka shrink jutsu)
        -disruption cubes
        -super strength and speed

        lets discuss isshiki’s chakra rods

        Isshiki’s way of fighting is by throwing shrunken chakra rods at his opponent before growing them to huge sizes with his eye.
        The problem with this is that its gonna do absolute shit agiants darksied.
        For one their main purpose is to not just stab the enemy but also drain their chakra.
        The problem with this is that darksied does not posses any chakra so these would legit just be normal stabs. and hell they would do shit.

        Hell this dude is invulerable agiants rockets and high frequency energy blast in the first place meaning the chakra rods would do nothing.

        And even then darksied’s omega beams are pretty much broken, there able to destroy pretty much anything, one shot from those and isshiki is fucking dead.

        Still not enough?
        Alr well how about darksied’s Molecular Dispersion

        Man is able to disperse the molecules of an object or organism, effectively erasing them from existence.
        Tell me how the fuck is isshiki supposed to counter that?

        he even has telekinesis

        size manipulation, energy manipulation and mind control

        One that really matters is his avatar creation

        You see the darksied that you may know… is not the real darksied.

        The space golem that is known as darksied, is not really him, its just a avatar of darksied

        Because darksied has a true form, and his true form exist somewhere else.
        Cause if his true form were to appear in this fight, he would end up wiping out the multiverse just by being there.

        Meaning that isshiki is never gonna truly defeat darksied, cause he only defeated a avatar of him, and even then darskied can always pop another avatar if the first one dies.

        Oh whats that isshiki is very strong?

        Darksied clashed with superman and i already explained how fucking strong superman is.

        So yeah isshiki is getting his ass wiped form existence

        Darksied has several ways to end this fight while isshiki has 0 ways to win.

        Unless isshiki has radion, which would be unfair meaning isshiki got preptime. then he is not winning anytime soon and even if he had radion he would still lose. The first move darksied makes will be the last one he has to do.

      • I appreciate the explanation but I think we’re underestimating Isshiki here. Look the guy is an absolute monster in combat. He was shredding both Goku and Vegeta Sasuke and Naruto at the same time. You mentioned Dasrkseid’s omega lasers but could they even hurt him? Even if they could, they would never land. Lex Luther was able to dodge Darkseid’s attacks and Isshiki is many times faster than that. Batman was also able to knock Darkseid over a few steps and Isshiki is massively stronger as well.

        I like Darkseid but fighters have stabbed him in the eyes and it worked, not to mention just beating him up all the time. It means that he is absolutely doomed. He doesn’t have the speed or power to dodge and even his true form can’t really change the terms of engagement there. He’s still not ready for this fight

      • I only made an account to just say you that you are a retard thinking that he can win against isshiki at all. Your arguments are so flawed and dumb omg. Learn how to powerscale first.

      • Isshiki is absolutely crazy as a fighter. It’s hard to see just about anyone managing to take him down. His abilities are simply unmatched

  2. I see your giving him the “OH HE LOST TO WEAKER OPPONENTS” treatment

    Severak things wrong with your shitty answer

    First of all no isshiki cannot beat goku or vegeta, those two would fucking clap isshiki on their own cause isshiki has never actually shown any levels of strength compared to them.

    second of all you underestimate lex luthor, and what? cause he is just some buisness man with a iron man suit? Lex has taken as well as reacted to superman’s attacks before and im not gonna explain why this is better cause only someone with more then 2 braincells would understand.

    another thing is that he even fucking gained superman’s powers before.

    third of all im guessing your gonna say”OH BUT DARKSIED HAS NEVER DONE HIS FEATS IN COMBAT SPEED”
    Once agian man has competed with superman, already explained superman’s in combat feats, he is gonna slap him

    And dude i just fucking said that isshiki can never actually beat darksied, only a avatar of him. and like i said he can just pop another one, so it does not fucking matter if isshiki beats one of darksieds avatar’s when with just a thought he can create another one.

    And yes the omega lasers will hurt him, in fact they would fucking destroy him.
    Cause the lasers could destroy planets.

    and even then isshiki fell for a fucking shadow clone by kawaki.
    That was legit how he died, by falling for a shadow clone.

    besides i really dont think isshiki has the strength to even make darksied flinch.

    and i think you missed the part where i said he could disperse someones molecules and erase them from existence. Like once agian

    explain to me how is he supposed to stop that huh?

    Your just mad that your precious naruto characters are being whooped by dc marvel and jojo characters.
    Sorry bro, perhaps the naruto universe was not as strong as you thought it was

    Dont get me wrong its strong all right, but compared to those 3 that i mentioned?
    They dont stand a shit chance

    • Darkseid has never done those feats in combat before so lets not get ahead of ourselves here. Also, he was getting pressed by Lex and Batman so we can’t ignore that. The man’s a little old and it just happens. I’ll agree that Isshiki isn’t touching the DBZ characters but neither would Darkseid. Look, Superman is much stronger than Darkseid and I wouldn’t give him the edge over Isshiki. Their levels of power are just way too much. His lasers would be absorbed by Isshiki or just dodged. If Batman can dodge them, don’t think that Isshiki would have much of a problem.

      You underestimate the Naruto verse by a good deal. Those guys can absolutely fight with the best of them and have proven this on numerous occasions. This is their power and it is very real. Now, how could Isshiki stop the omega lasers? Well, he would just punch right through them or dodge with pure speed. Both are viable options here. Isshiki may have had his losses but this wouldn’t be one of them. Darkseid won’t be able to surprise him here.

      • Alr im not having this argument with you if your gonna repeat the same thing with superman

        Stop being a dumbass weeb already and learn how to actually do research on fights

        Dude the narutoverse is strong but agiants the fucking dc universe, there screwed.

        Your saying this, isshiki would just punch the omega lasers.

        Like really bro? Are you this dumb?

        And once agian with the combat speed feats i already told you he can do these feats in combat.


        Getting pressed by lex and batman, Those 2 have things in common and thats creating new things to counter agianst powerful characters.

        Seriously dude,


        like fr dude im sorry the character from your favorite shonen anime is gonna lose to some space golem but
        Darksied is a fucking god. While isshiki never truly became one.
        and once agian dude
        isshiki cannot beat darksieds true form
        nor his avatar
        even if he did
        he can just summon another avatar and this cycle would continue until isshiki runs out of chakra.

      • You’re not actually trying to say that the DC verse is stronger than the Naruto one? Cmon now you’re gonna lose credability there. Naruto, Isshiki, and the top tiers of the verse destroy DC. Naruto’s beaten gods before like Sasuke and Isshiki so Darkseid won’t scare them. Darkseid has some decent strength and speed but nothing on the level of Isshiki. Isshiki would just keep on speedblitzing him over and over again.

        Isshiki can easily punch the living daylights out of Darkseid and that’s while holding back. Trust me, you don’t want to even put these guys in the same conversation. The omega lasers aren’t going to do anything to him, you can quote me on that too. It’s just too much tbh

  3. Actually yes that is what im implying the dc universe can beat the naruto verse. The naruto verse legit has shown 0 evidence on at least being strong enough to destroy a planet while the dc universe has destroyed multiverses.
    And no naruto really has not beaten any gods. Sasuke is not a god
    And while yes isshiki was stronger then a god naruto never really beat him, he only outlasted him before he died.

    And once agian dumbass

    • The Naruto verse is way stronger than DC though. Sasuke and Kaguya are basically gods. They would smoke anyone in DC and I say that as a DC fan. Look, the bottom line is that Naruto and friends are way too fast and powerful to lose here. It’s just not happening because they are too good

      • Dude if you said this comment in like a reddit somewhere then lemme tell you your shit is about to get raped by comments from dc fans as well as other people saying how wrong you are.

        First of all no, sasuke is not a god, demi-god at best but even then thats me being generous.
        And yes while kaguya is a god, at best she is star level and once agian, thats me being generous.
        Kaguya never actually showed planet destroying feats before while legit people in the dc universe who are not god have.

        and dude just cause your a dc fan does not make your claim any better

        Im more of a naruto fan then i am of dc fan but that does not make this claim better does it?

        Its fucking irrelevant.

        And once agian dude


        Oh whats that they kill one of darksieds avatars?
        Thats fine darksied can just pop a new avatar, and he can keep doing this until every single naruto character is dead. hell he never really needed to create more avatars anyway cause the naruto verse would lose to darksied anyway.

        Lemme tell you something

        Have you ever seen a single naruto character destroy at least a planet? or pull a sun around?

        Like just think about that, characters who cant destroy a planet, vs characters that can and even destroy suns, galaxy’s, universes and the multiverse.

        Like how the hell can you make a comparison on that and still say the naruto verse would win?

        Like hell SHOW ME evidence of a SINGLE naruto character that has been able to destroy at least either a planet or a sun.

        Fail to do that and therefore the dc universe legit slaps every single naruto character.

        Its funny how you ignore the avatar creation and darksied true form claim cause you know im right and you just dont want to admitted it
        LOL XD

      • Here, this is Momoshiki destroying an entire solar system.

        Game set and match. I’m telling you the Naruto universe is busted. They’re absolutely devastating and that’s why DC would be unable to match up. They’ve got some powerful fighters but nobody nearly on that level. As for the Darkseid part, I like his true form but it doesn’t change anything here. Naruto still low diffs him because Naruto is absolutely broken in terms of raw power and ability. I don’t want to admit it…I bet nobody does, but that’s just how good he is.

        As for me being a DC fan, I just wanted to throw that out there because I’m really familiar with Darkseid and the crew. I like him as a villain but he is completely outgunned here.

  4. Ok so several things wrong with your claims

    1 you prob should have read more into the comments cause momoshiki did not destroy a star

    He only conquered a planet whose sun was dying.

    And no conquering a planet is different from destroying one.

    Even if he was star level (and this is me being quite the generous guy)

    Darksied has destroyed universes on his own, and thats just him, People like superman, the flash, specifically wally west, spectre, dr.fate and shazam have all destroyed universes before.

    And as for your true form claim,
    Just wtf, naruto has not destroyed a fucking planet in all his life, what makes you think he can win agiants the true form of a god, whos presence can destroy the entire multiverse.


    Like explain with mathematical terms and evidence form legit every fucking source on naruto how naruto Or hell the main topic, isshiki would be able to do that.

    Fighting a god who can destroy universes
    create new avatars if his first one is defeated
    His true form can wipe out the multiverse with its presence alone.
    can erase people form existence with just a thought.

    Explain that to me rn
    Sources from naruto right the fuck now

  5. Holy shit your stupid

    How is it not gonna be enough?

    Momoshiki lost to a fucking rasengan.
    Its not one of those reality benders, its literally him destroying a multiverse.

    Now its time take all your evidence and dump it into the trash

    For 1
    Your naruto blocking a hit form sasuke?
    Like really? first of all its them as fucking kids
    2nd of all sasuke was not at full power
    Why the hell are you using that as a claim
    Thats fucking dumb
    naruto blocking a hit from sasuke?
    Thats your fucking claim?
    Darksied has done more crazy shit then legit everything you listed.
    Once agian
    Avatar creation

    As for your madara uchiha claim

    Yes naruto is charging at madara with an attack but legit madara blocked his attack with his fan and used uchiha reflection. Its legit a counter move.
    And its not even that strong, its just a fucking gust of wind, barely impressive.

    As for your naruto fighting a god thing, he is fighting this so called god WITH SASUKE”S HELP.

    Oh whats that he cant move that fast at all.
    Dude he fucking has, in fact he does so so much. man would have reacted to legit all those attacks easily, if he is fast enough to travel to the end of existence, and keep up with people like the flash IN COMBAT SPEED, then yes he can keep up easily.

    Dude stop being a naruto virgin already, like fr its not good for you, your gonna get bullied if you do.

    Idk how the hell you find a universe destroying god losing to only star level characters, and darksieds just one of the universe destroying gods.

    And besides like i said so many times
    if darksieds avatar is defeated he can create a new one and continue the fight easily.

    • Hey I went and got those feats as requested. I thought they were really good. Do I really need to explain why being able to go up against Sasuke is so impressive? We’ve been over that in the Giorno thread. Sasuke’s basically a god in his own right. I’m a big Naruto fan of course but isn’t that a complement? It’s like you keep throwing complements at me and I’m getting confused. I don’t think I’d be bullied for enjoying peak fiction.

      Without Naruto everything else would fall apart. It’s what keeps our society in a good place at all times. As for the star level guys, they’re good and all but definitely not universe level. As for the avatars it would belike Naruto summoning shadow clones. It’s fun and all but they aren’t going to do a whole lot in the grand scheme of things aside from taking Ls. Naruto can summon a bunch of avatars too and that would be game over.

      Look, I like Darkseid. He’s a cool villain but he’s a power type who was never mean to run with the big guns like Naruto. Naruto can hit him with the Rasengans like what beat Isshiki and that would be it for him.

      • Yeah you got the feats but the feats were shit.
        You legit got a feat of naruto blocking sasuke’s attack?
        Like bro thats just lazy research
        I could say the same shit with darksied blocked an attack from superman.

        And dude no im not complimenting you, The fact you like the naruto series so much means that most of all your naruto matchups are biased.

        You even went out of your way to say that naruto is the soul heart of anime. Like wtf
        You stupid or something?

        And as for your shadow clone claim,
        Theres a difference.
        For one the shadow clones naruto makes are rather fragile and legit get killed immediately by just one attack. While darksied’s avatars takes a SHIT LOAD of effort to even kill.
        and 2nd naruto’s shadow clones use chakra while darksieds avatars dont use any power source.
        Hell it takes just a thought and darksied can make one.
        Besides a omega beam which can automatically travel to its targets are more then enough to wipe out an army of shadow clones.

        I already know what happens next,
        your next comment will be more saying how great the naruto universe is and how strong it is, while saying that all my points i said are not gonna do much to naruto nor any character.

        Jesus christ bro learn how to debate fr

      • The Naruto verse is great though and they’re all really strong. The points you made are good but they’re not going to be doing much here. The Naruto shadow clones are fragile but they all match Naruto’s overall speed and power so it’s not easy to take them out. The fact that Isshiki could just speaks to how unbelievably powerful he is.

        No bias is allowed on the site though. I have a 100% accuracy policy so I can guarantee you that I don’t let anything sway me in the Naruto battles. It is a crucial anime to the whole industry though so I would have to absolutely insist on that. Naruto is not going down, not at all. He’s just too powerful and his shadow clones would absolutely overwhelm Darkseid. They may be fragile but they’re still way too fast for Darkseid to do anything against them.

  6. In terms of which series I prefer, I’d have to go with Naruto over DC comics. But I do still like DC and know a decent amount about most of their characters plus abilities.
    Anyway, I’m going with Darkseid for the win here. He has been shown to be an absolute monster on various occasions, has gone toe to toe with Superman and the rest of the League, and has the entire army of Apokolis at his disposal.
    The Omega Beams can easily destroy anything and anyone on a molecular level, and I don’t think Isshiki has shown any resistance to an attack that powerful. These Omega beams have been shown to follow targets BACK IN TIME. Not even going to another Era can save you. That, to me anyway, speaks volumes about his power.
    As for Isshiki? He’s only about maybe planet or large planet level. What does that mean? Well, Darkseid is way, way more durable than that. Isshiki would need a pretty significant power Amp to contend with Darkseid. I personally think that the top tier Naruto characters only tap out at about moon level or slightly more than that, but that’s another debate altogether.
    To conclude, Darkseid wins with pretty much no difficulty at all. The only real chance Isshiki has is maybe sealing Darkseid away, but that won’t happen. Darkseid isn’t the type to play around, and shrinking won’t help Isshiki much at all. The only other way he might, just might pull a win is through planting a karma mark on Darkseid, but again, pretty unlikely. He needs to physically touch him in order to plant the mark, which makes him a better target for the Omega beams. Isshiki is only about speed of light or higher in combat speed, while the Omega beams can tag characters as fast as Superman, who is probably slightly faster than the speed of light times 100 (Post-Flash Point Superman).
    Please bear in mind that I say all of this as the person who ASKED for this match to be made, and I’m still arguing for Darkseid over Isshiki here.

    • I get what you’re saying, I prefer Naruto too. That series is just way too good at this point. Then you’ve got that Boruto sequel which is actually really good too. I appreciate you arguing for Darkseid here but you should really switch sides to Isshiki. Trust me you’ll prefer it that way because that guy is an absolute beast in combat.

      So lets talk about Darkseid. As you said he’s gone up against Superman in the past which is impressive but not enough to make Naruto nervous. Naruto can make thousands of clones and Isshiki was still overwhelming that guy. You could make the case that Isshiki could grab Darkseid and just crush him with his bare hands. That’s how powerful Isshiki is. The guy’s an absolute menace! A beast of battle! An alien with powers beyond comprehension.

      Isshiki is fast enough to keep on tagging Isshiki and then to pummel him into submission. Remember that the omega beams had a hard time catching up to Batman and that guy’s just a human. Trying to tag Naruto would be completely impossible here.

      • Well, the Boruto sequel is pretty good, not gonna lie. It’s far from perfect, but I’m glad that it exists all the same.
        Yes, I know how much of a “beast” Isshiki is in combat. He was able to punch through Sasuke’s Perfect Susano’o with a mere kick, after he juiced himself up with Chakra from his Ten-Tails. He also was faster than Sasuke’s sharingan could track, which was impressive. I know all about his powers and abilities, including how his shrinking powers work and how he can store items in a near timeless dimension to use later.
        As for your other argument… quit using false equivalency arguments. I assume you’re referring to Batman dodging the omega beams in Justice League Unlimited, right? Well, that’s probably the weakest depiction of Darkseid ever made. I would also consider that “feat” an outlier, if anything else. I’m referring to Darkseid (pre- and post-Flashpoint) for feats. Darkseid and the New Gods as a whole exist as abstract constructs, so killing one “avatar” of Darkseid won’t make much of a difference. He can simply make as many avatars as is needed.
        One more thing … blathering on and on about how great Naruto does not make that verse any more powerful. You make yourself sound a tad ignorant by saying that over and over again.

      • Naruto’s just amazing though, I kind of get in awe when talking about the all time greats like that. But yeah Boruto’s pretty good too, things are really heating up there and Isshiki has really shown what it means to be universal. Yeah I was talking about Justice League Unlimited which was definitely a blast. Now I can accept that as an outlier but even then Darkseid isn’t touching this guy. Being a construct doesn’t help at all, in fact the more abstract you are, the weaker you tend to me. It’s why the One Above All has well over 100 losses on this site even to guys like James Bond. Now Darkseid is not in that boat but his best stuff is from his so called avatars. That’s the only way to come close and even then Isshiki will be mowing them down like the lawn

      • Since when was it proven that Isshiki was universal? That’s a baseless claim. Furthermore, Naruto was a good maybe even great series, but I think you’re exaggerating its value. It’s better than most of the current Shonen titles running right now, but let’s not kid ourselves here. And for your information, the only aspect that might make Naruto stronger than Superman is if Superman has been injected with a lethal level of kyptonite into his bloodstream. The claim that Naruto might even be stronger than Supes is so ridiculous I can’t comprehend it…
        Moving on, you didn’t address any of my points in the least. I said that it doesn’t matter how many avatars Isshiki can kill so long as Darkseid can simply make as many as is needed. That’s the simple truth, even if you refuse to see it.
        Also, unless Isshiki can somehow damage or affect reality on a conceptual level, he’s not touching Darkseid. He is the embodiment of chaos in the DC universe, so no one from Naruto can so much as even damage let alone defeat him.
        I know you use “composite” versions of all fighters on this site, so that means that all versions and feats for Darkseid are viable in this fight. I have no idea where you got the notion that all Naruto characters greatly surpass DC characters, and I won’t even bother trying to explain that if you can’t understand how Darkseid can’t even be touched by anyone less than another abstract being.
        Now that I think about it, if Isshiki is so much stronger than Darkseid, then Isshiki can easily crush your precious Bass.EXE. Now you’ll drone on and on about how strong Bass is and how his “Get Ability” is somehow stronger than all of fiction, so that he’ll beat Isshiki and Darkseid both with only his pinky or some such nonsense.

      • Isshiki has powers that are so beyond the realms of the ordinary that it scares me. This guy was taking on both Naruto and Sasuke. Naruto can definitely beat Superman but that’s for another thread. Lets just say that Superman isn’t fast or strong enough to hold his own here.

        As for Darkseid, he can use his clones/avatars but they’re not going to really help him here at all. Isshiki would stomp them the way he stomps Naruto’s endless amounts of shadow clones. That’s how strong the guy is.

        As for Bass, of course he crushes them with ease. Bass is the man who is stronger than the rest of media combined. There is no way to defeat him, nobody can even come close.

  7. Finally someone here who know’s what there talking about.

    I still dont understand why someone would think someone who has not been proven to be at least star level would be strong enough to fight a being capable of destroying the universe.

    It really does not make sense in any way.

    • You have to consider all of the variables and then use the power scaling in sync. Only then will you have a complete picture of what’s going on the whole time

      • If you know about power scaling then you should know universe destroying feats are far greater then star destroying ones.

        Isshiki’s powers beyond the fucking realm?

        Isshiki’s powers are strong but not out of this realm.

        His dojutsu can shrink objects, pretty simple stuff there. Not suprising since we have seen dojutsu’s that can alter a persons perception of time.

        The chakra rods were something we have seen already

        Portal creation? sasuke has that too, not to mention obito can legit use kamui to go to his own pocket diemension.

        Absorbing abilities?
        rinnegan already allows that, hell even some basic tech allows it too, as we see naruto use it agiants boruto.

        The point is isshiki’s arsenal is not that beyond the realm. sure karma is strong, but so far it has never shown any abilities capable of destroying the planet, neither has isshiki ever shown planet destroying feats, sure its likely he can but then agian thats me assuming he can. Hell we are overestimating isshiki to the point where we are putting him at star level.

        And you seem to misunderstand darksieds avatars,
        There not like naruto’s shadow clones.

        Just because you saw jigen beat down naruto’s shadow clones in a fight does not mean its gonna be the same for darksied.

        Besides darksieds true form can legit destroy isshiki just with his presence alone, Hell even if isshiki were to defeat darkseids avatar, he can summon another and continue this process until isshiki runs out of chakra. Meaning isshiki will NEVER truly beat darksied in a fight like this, hell not even a single naruto character that currently exist can beat darkseid.

        Its hilarious how biased and desperate you are to get your precious naruto characters to win fights agianst clearly overpowered characters. Im suprised this is even a debate

      • Darkseid’s avatars may as well be shadow clones for all the good they will be against Isshiki. Jigen is immensely powerful and Isshiki is even stronger. I would also take Naruto and Sasuke over Darkseid. I’m not bias though because my site has a 100% accuracy policy. No matter what I gotta look at things objectively because if I don’t, then that could hurt the reputation of the site. I have to make sure to keep everyone on their toes.

        Isshiki’s powers are absolutely insane so saying that they are outside of the realm seems reasonable to me. There is basically nobody in the verse who can even hold a candle to him. I don’t know about you but that seems pretty insane to me. I would not want to run into this guy in a dark alley that’s for sure! He would be giving me the combos and I just wouldn’t be able to find a way out of them. It feels bad man….it feels bad

      • You… really don’t understand how power-scaling works, do you…
        Tell me something, do you understand what an abstract being is? How they exist beyond conventional concepts, such as time, space, and so on and so forth? As I said, unless you can prove that Isshiki has high level reality warping abilities or better, then he is never touching Darkseid.
        Look, I really like Isshiki as a villain. Heck, I’d consider him to be my favorite from the Boruto series, but there’s no way he can beat Darkseid. I know you’ll use some form of logic that apparently makes sense in your head, but it doesn’t really hold any water. If I use your logic and say that Isshiki drinks orange juice instead of coffee in the morning, that somehow will make him vastly superior to Darkseid.
        I honestly almost thought I was a Narutard or something worse, but I’m rather happy to know I’m not. I could tell you right now that Darkseid picks his nose and Naruto, Sasuke, Kaguya, Obito, Madara, Hashirama, Isshiki, and everyone else in the Naruto verse simply ceases to exist. The fact that you cannot grasp this concept despite the facts is frankly… embarrassing.

      • Abstract beings are weaker than physical ones. By being everywhere they are nowhere and end up losing to all attacks. Isshiki still wins because he’s stronger and faster. Give me this guy over Darkseid any day because he brought the feats and has that insane amount of combat experience.

        I’m a big fan of Isshiki too and that’s why I feel like he wins this battle. On paper he’s just way stronger so it’s almost not fair. This is the kind of power that we’re dealing with here and it’s a bit shocking tbh

  8. If darksied is a abstract being then isshiki cant kill him.

    You clearly dont know what abstract beings are cause if you did then you would know isshiki cant kill darksied.
    abstract beings are ones who embody concepts, things like time, space, Universes pretty much anything.
    Say this
    if naruto was fighting the abstract being of death how the hell is he meant to win?
    Is naruto supposed to kill death itself? Please explain to me how the fuck your supposed to do that.
    Darksied is the abstract being of chaos itself.
    How is isshiki supposed to kill the abstract being of chaos?
    A simple answer
    He doesn’t.

    Also isshiki is not stronger nor faster, cause he never was shown destroying a planet before while darkseids omega beams could do more then destroy planets. Isshiki is also fast but he has never taken a trip to the edge of existence in 5 seconds.
    Now i know what your gonna say
    “But darksied has never shown that kind of speed during combat”
    Once agian, feats like i said can be used in combat speed.
    Even then darksied has fought superman and the flash who are both speedsters meaning yes darksied can move as fast as he would with his trip to the edge of existence.

    Another thing is that the omega beams darkseid has is that it can legit vaporize anyone who comes into contact with them.
    Oh whats that? isshiki is too fast for the omega beams to land a hit?
    The omega beams can track the target darksied wants to hit, meaning that no matter how fast isshiki is, the omega beams are gonna hit him.
    how is isshiki meant to dodge auto tracking lasers that move so fast and can vaporise you instantly.
    I also heard that the omega beams could disable powers, so like it could disable isshiki’s shrinking ability, not that it would matter though.
    Hell the omega beams can also turn fucking invisible and phase through objects and they can also lock onto the targets atomic frequency.
    How the hell is isshiki supposed to stop beams that can move faster then light, auto track him, turn invisible, phase through objects and if they make contact, instantly vaporize him.

    There aint shit that isshiki can do, and hell this is just one attack from darksied.
    Darkseid has like many more abilities.

    • Nah, abstract is a downgrade and that’s what I’m trying to say here. You can definitely destroy death. The instant the concept becomes real and you can fight it is the instant that it’s all over. Death won’t be able to do much of anything in a close quarters combat situation. It’s just not happening and that’s what makes things real interesting here. In a way you always want to have a physical body or you’re about to get absolutely devastated the whole time.

      I’m not saying Darkseid’s slow so I want to make that clear. I’m just saying he isn’t nearly fast enough to tag Isshiki. Isshiki was so fast that he was handling both Naruto and Sasuke teaming up. That’s absolutely unheard of and he was doing it easy. Darkseid’s best feats in terms of speed is easily in the Apocalypse movie and I will acknowledge it was a great fight. I just don’t see that being enough here.

      As for the lasers, they’re fast but Isshiki would either absorb or block them. He wouldn’t even need to try and dodge. The blasts are powerful but not on his level. So ultimately I’m on Isshiki’s team because he’s just stronger in all of the relevant stats

      • No fucking way you said you can destroy death.
        I was using the abstract of death as an example of how abstract beings work.
        When i say darksied is the abstract being of chaos,What i mean is he cant be killed cause he is a abstract being. at least his true form is a abstract being.

        And yes sure isshiki was fast enough to deal with both naruto and sasuke, but darksied took on the justice league all on his own and has won before. and this was agiants beings like superman, wonder woman, green lantern and the flash.

        For the lasers your wrong.
        He cant just block the omega lasers, well i mean he could but thats most likely gonna get him killed.
        And no isshiki cannot absorb the omega beams, his karma or kama’s absorbing ability has been stated to only absorb chakra based attacks.
        And of course, the omega beams are not chakra based attacks.
        Besides even if he could absorb them
        You most likely missed the part when i said they move faster then light, auto track, turn invisible and phase through objects.
        Not sure how isshiki is supposed to absorb something that fast and that it can turn invisible

        Once agian your just ignoring the omega beams powers and power output,
        Cause you know im right 🙂

      • Of course you can destroy death. It’s been done before by fighters like Thanos and Flash. Concepts were made to be destroyed if you think about it. Without combat they would cease to improve.

        As for the lasers, Isshiki would definitely be able to bock and absorb them. The invisibility thing won’t bother him since his eyes are always so sharp and being FTL is nothing to these Naruto characters. Trust me, this would be a very easy win for him. I don’t even see the guy breaking a sweat. He’ll be able to absolutely dominate as soon as he wants to and that is what makes him such a dangerous opponent here.

        As for the Omega Beams power, it is pretty good but again, not as good as what Isshiki has gone up against. That’s why it’s not something he needs to worry about. Also you can’t compare the justice league to Naruto and Sasuke. It would be a massive stomp and wouldn’t even be close.

  9. Your wrong on so many levels

    For one no thanos nor the flash have defeated death before
    thanos only worked with death in order to please her and the flash really only went back in time to stop his death from happening.
    If your wondering about the thanos death part, thanos was being manipulated by the personification of death. and yes its a she. now the death in the marvel series is of course a abstract entity of course.
    Now there is a marvel character out there that has defeated death before and that was the beyonder, however he destroyed and re created death itself. and even then it weakened him alot.
    Now thats saying alot since the beyonder was the one of the most powerful being’s in the multiverse. what i meant by abstract beings being unkillable, i mean they cant be killed through any normal circumstances. and what i mean by that, i mean its gonna take the power of somebody who can legit destroy everything on a multiversal scale.

    Another thing is that this is from the marvel universe not dc so idk why the hell you brining marvel related things to a dc related topic.
    Maybe it was to prove that abstract beings can be killed however even if they can be truly killed, its not like isshiki could destroy one anyway, after all the beyonder was Horribly weakened after destroying death. Also the dc universe does not have the same laws as marvel does, sure most things are the same but some are changed.
    Besides, even if it was truly possible that abstract beings can be destroyed, that does not mean isshiki has the means to destroy it.
    Just cause its possible does not mean this character can do it.

    But back to the point at hand

    First of all no isshiki cannot block the lasers, i told you there capable of vaporizing people no matter how truly durable they are, sure some has survived but its either they had abilities that can indeed survive planet level attacks or darkseid was weakened.

    Since isshiki has never been shown to survive a planet level attack before, we cant say he could survive the omega laser, but lets say he can, lets highball isshiki and milk him to where he can survive lets say a star level attack, well still no cause the lasers could vaporize people anyway, no matter how durable they can be.
    And no isshiki cannot just absorb them either cause like i said, he can only abosbr chakra based attacks.
    And no since when has isshiki’s eyes been so sharp to see invisible things?
    No byuakugan cannot see invisible things.
    Like when has he been able to see invisible things.
    Like wheres the proof?

    Also yes the lasers can move FTL and so can naruto characters, but, auto tracking FTL lasers?
    its gonna be more isshiki running from the lasers then him fighting darkseid.

    Also wtf you mean naruto and sasuke can beat the justice leauge?
    I already established superman can beat naruto and now you think he is gonna beat the other members in a brawl? green lanterns power is based on will itself, and its been able to power through planet level attacks. wonder woman has thrown planets around and even greater.
    Batman with his hellbat suit could legit one shot both naruto and sasuke.
    and the flash could always go back in time in case something went wrong in the fight.

    Like naruto and sasuke at best are continent level when we see legit all of the justice league be able to take on universal threats.

    But of course the 2 braincells in your head will always think of some BS to say.

    • Naruto and Sasuke would crush the Justice League though. I countered on the Superman points and showed why Naruto would actually win in the end. Don’t be underestimating his Rasengan! That attack is absolutely insane and can you imagine Sasuke taking out his ninjutsu? As for the Flash going back in time, there’s not much they can do against that which is true but he won’t be able to resist making eye contact to brag and that’s when Sasuke’s got him in an illusion for the rest of the match. It’s just game over.

      Isshiki can stop the blasts. Even though they home in on you and are planet busting and all, Isshiki has shown that no energy attack can get through to him. This will be the same case for Darkseid’s attack as well and it’s why he will fall. He just won’t be able to take him down for the count.

      As for the whole death and concepts thing, put it this way. If it exists then it can be destroyed and that’s all I’m saying here. Dread it, run from it, but victory arrives all the same. If anything conceptual beings are often the weakest because they figure that they don’t need real feats to go for the win and that’s a massive mistake. One that will cost them in most fights that’s for sure.

      Darkseid’s omega lasers are his only defense and they will not be enough or even be close to being enough. Isshiki still wins on all of the fundamental stats which gives him an absolutely massive advantage here

      • No you did not, i got lazy trying to convince you that superman could beat naruto cause no matter what i say you dont fucking listen and understand.

        i dont underestimate naruto or sasuke for this matter, there both strong characters and could beat alot of anime characters. The problem is that the justice league are just far more overpowered then you might think.
        Another thing is that no sasuke’s sharingan genjutsu wont be able to do much agiants the flash, cause for one he needs to make eye contact with the flash in order to do so, and two the flash has resistance to mind control and illusions before so genjutsu is really not a good option here.
        And you overestimate the rasengan’s power. Yes its strong but is it as strong as a supernova?
        and no dude just cause the rasengan is more focused then a supernova does not make it stronger then the supernova.

        For your 2nd argument, your wrong agian. You just said that isshiki can block the lasers.
        But you never shown isshiki surviving a planet level attack, not that it would matter since the lasers vaporize anyone anyway. Tell me, has isshiki ever had to deal with vaporization? no
        also like i said they can just phase through objects and turn invisible.
        not sure how isshiki is supposed to shrink or absorb something like that.

        and even if isshiki is able to counter the omega beams.
        I have been leaving out darkseids other powers too
        Like mind control
        Molecular Dispersion
        Psionic Possession
        and teleportation.
        Isshiki already struggled with sasuke using his rinnegan to shift places with naruto,boruto and other objects.However darkseid’s teleportation does not have sasuke’s limit of shifting places cause his teleportation ability is a legit teleporting ability.

        as for your 3rd claim, I legit said, just cause it can be destroyed does not fucking mean the character you talk about can destroy it.
        Like if Supermanium, the strongest metal in the dc universe can be destroyed.
        That does not fucking mean some random guy on the street can destroy it.
        isshiki does not have the power or abilities needed to beat darkseid, hell pretty much no one in the dc universe so far can destroy darkseids true form.

        and finnaly no the omega lasers are not darkseids only defense.

        wanna know what molecular dispersion does?
        Its able to dissipate and disperse the molecules of an object or organism, effectively erasing it existence.
        Tell me this
        How the hell is isshiki meant to counter that?
        Use your head. an ability that can legit erase molecules of living things and objects. legit erasing them from existence.
        I will let you think about how isshiki is meant to counter that.

      • Molecular dispersion sounds good but I still don’t see that really stopping Isshiki here. that’s still a standard destruction ability even if it sounds fancy. Isshiki should be able to block or absorb the attack either way. That’s the kind of power he has at his disposal and if all else fails then he can quickly summon up some spikes to block and take his place.

        Darkseid’s true form is strong but again, I’m more impressed with the avatars than the actual mode. They are the ones with all of the best feats but still not fast enough to stop Isshiki. Speed is really what helps Isshiki a lot in this battle because he can always stay one step ahead.

        As for not being able to vaporize them, Isshiki’s absorption doesn’t factor in the strength of the spell. It just worked because he is able to absorb projectiles. There is no special trick to it and in a way that’s why I get so impressed with him all the time. It shows how versatile he is.

        For the Justice League part, look the Flash gets mind controlled a lot. In Crisis on Two Earths he was mind controlled almost immediately after one jedi mind trick gag. Sasuke’s sharingan is the real deal and nobody has resistance to that. You can slow it down or break free eventually but in Flash’s case not before they lose. Likewise Naruto will be really taking the other fighters down right from the jump. His Rasengan is absolutely broken with how strong it is.

  10. Your stupid on so many levels and you fr need to pick up a dc comic book

    First of no dude, why tf would you think molecular dispersion is a standard ability, No fucking person in naruto has that kind of ability. and in the dc universe its not common.
    Also dude no, molecular dispersion is not a physical kind of attack. darkseid is not shooting a beam to disperse the persons molecules. Molecular dispersion is more like a thought activated ability and its legit darkseid erasing a person or objects molecules from existence? and your telling me isshiki can just abosrb or block it? how are you meant to block an attack that can erase your molecules?
    LIke fr explain that to me.
    And abosrb? wtf is isshiki meant to absorb? he is meant to abosrb darkseids attack? there is no physical way for him to actually do this, cause HIS MOLECULES ARE GETTING ERASED.
    and your saying he could just stop darkseid by abosrbing it?
    Since your a HUGE anime weeb, let me phrase it in a way for you to understand

    Molecular dispersion being able to erase molecules from an object or foe is similar to dragon balls hakai move,
    Now im only using this as an example since your not smart enough to understand and it needs to be put in anime terms for your sorry ass 🙂

    Molecular dispersion and hakai are VERY different, however, they have been shown to be used for a similar purpose. they both are able to erase beings as well as objects from existence. Tell me if isshiki were to fight lets say beerus and beerus used hakai on isshiki, Is isshiki meant to abosrb that? absorb an reality erasing attack?
    Hell its logical that darkseid could just use molecular dispersion on his arm to erase it, and completely remove isshiki’s abosrbing ability from the debate.
    isshiki cant absorb that now cant he? since he can only absorb stuff from the palm of his hand. besides once agian. Isshiki can only erase chakra based abilities.

    Next of course is the avatars, dude i cant believe your not fucking impressed by darkseids true form being able to destroy a multiverse just by its presence alone. that completely beats all of darkseids avatars.
    And dude just because your faster does not mean you instantly win. well hell its not like darkseid would not be faster anyway, besides he has teleportation in which isshiki struggled with agiants sasuke’s rinnegan.

    your 3rd claim, once agian isshiki can only absorb chakra based attacks.
    Even if he could remember that isshiki’s absorption ability is from the karma he uses. since karma is a tech kind of tool. we can assume that its got a limit to how much power it can store. even if thats not the case, its not like isshiki could spend all his time abosrbing the omega lasers. after all darkseid could just simply nullify his absorbing power all together with omega lasers. Even if he was ready to absorb the omega lasers they could easily turn away and strike isshiki elsewhere.
    the omega lasers are capable of sharp turns to steer away from incoming attacks or effects.

    And finnaly for you justice league part.
    Once agian your fucking using CARTOON FLASH. ACTUAL FLASH HAS MIND CONTROL RESISTANCE HELL EVEN CARTOON FLASH HAS IT TOO Besides even if he could get controlled by one. its not like sasuke can just catch a gaze of the flash anyway. he has to look barry in the eye to get him in it. if he tried that its gonna get him killed.

    And stop thinking the rasengan is like this all powerful attack.
    has it destroyed a planet before? no
    show me proof of the rasengan destroying a planet right the fuck now.
    meanwhile superman is over here benchpressing a planet for 4 days. and wonder woman tosses planets.
    Besides batman could just bust out the hellbat and legit wipe the fucking floor with naruto and sasuke. Hell batman has a suit that can rewrite someones fucking mind.
    So no, naruto and sasuke cannot beat the justice league.

    • *on all levels

      And I’ve read a ton of DC comics. You could even call me a DC expert tbh and I wouldn’t even correct you because that would be right. Okay so I think I ruffled a few potato chips with my comment on how Isshiki would low diff Darkseid here so let me elaborate. Messing with molecules is cool and all but like you said, it’s basically a Hakai attack. You can counter this with proper footwork and a decisive strike. If Isshiki concentrates the power of his chakra into one point then he can block the hit with ease and absolutely devastate Darkseid. It wouldn’t even be a true fight at that point. I feel bad for saying it…but Isshiki’s on a different level. Always has been as the meme would say.

      It may have a fancy name but the attack works the same way as any other. For the Beerus example, if they were closer in strength then yeah Isshiki could definitely block the hit. Only reason he can’t is because Beerus is basically a multiverse buster and can destroy anyone in his way. That guy is absolutely nuts!

      Feats like breaking universes with a wink or just by existing never impress me. You have to hit me with actual combat feats or I’m just going to be doubting that these guys are as tough as they claim. I get that it’s a good feat but to me Darkseid using his speed against Superman was a hundred times more impressive in Apocalypse. Those are the kinds of feats that get you the gold trophies at the end of the day.

      As for the Flash, he’s so overconfident he’ll make eye contact to try and intimidate Sasuke which will backfire horribly. I can tell you straight up that Sasuke doesn’t take well to that. He likes to be the one reminding the others that he is in control, not the other way around.

      The Rasengan could blow up a planet now. Remember that he was going even with Toneri who could blow up a moon so that’s the end of that. It shows just how serious his abilities are and why he is nearly unstoppable.

      As for the Hellbat, it is strong but Naruto and Sasuke would tag team him like with Momoshiki. I’m not saying it would be a complete stomp but the match would be over quickly. Each member of the JL has never fought opponents as strong as Sasuke or Naruto. Nor do I expect they ever will because guys like this are one in a million.

      Naruto and Sasuke are just way too broken though so few can beat them. Back to the Isshiki fight, well think of it like playing chess but the other player has 4 queens. That is what Darkseid will be up against here. He can move the omega lasers around as often as he wants but Isshiki will react to it each time

      • Once agian time to literally debunk everything you just said without doing any research agian.

        First of all no, i highly doubt your that of an expert in dc, if you were its either A your the dumbest dc expert to live. or b you are not actually one.

        For one i was basing off molecular dispersion to hakai cause they are used for the same purpose, being able to erase things from existence. Thats all, thats the only thing they have in common. NOTHING ELSE BETWEEN HAKAI AND MOLECULAR DISPERSION ARE THE SAME NOW.
        Hakai just erases anything from existence. while molecualr dispersion can disperse molecules inside of objects or living beings, when i mean disperse, i mean getting rid of them all together, therfore erasing whatever darkseid used moldecular dispersion on gets erased.
        of course it seems like hakai is the better option however the downside to hakai is that it can be resisted. simply by matching the user in power.
        And i dont see how footwork and strikes are meant to counter an attack that erases a persons molecules. If a living things molecules are gone, well there dead.
        And what? isshiki focusing his chakra into one point so he can block the attack? How is chakra meant to stop your molecules from being dispersed. Hell how is isshiki even supposed to know his molecules are getting erased in the first place? Even if he had the abilities to see his molecules. He does not have anything in his arsenal thats meant to counter it.
        And if he tried to absorb this so called attack, what is he trying to absorb?
        The fucking attack? its not a energy based attack.

        And no its not stated that beerus is a multiverse buster. only a universe buster.
        in which case darkseid far surpasses that.

        next up the flash, if the flash was that overconfident in his fights then he would most certainly be fucking dead right now.
        And once agian dude,the flash has resistence to mind attacks like genjutsu before, including ones with sharingan genjutsu.

        And lol no. The rasengan is not strong enough to destroy a planet.
        Sure the rasengan could theoretically destroy the moon if naruto put in a shit ton of chakra. but tbh thats me pushing it. even then Wtf makes you think you can compare the moon to earth? the moon would be like 27% of earth. Not even close to destroying a planet. meanwhile darkseid destroys planets on accident during fights.

        Next of all. the hellbat was legit forged by superman in the sun, and every justice league member put their effort into adding some abilities to the hellbat. meaning yes, it too can destroy a universe.
        And what do you mean no jl member has fought someone as strong as naruto and sasuke.
        They have faced some bullshit that the naruto verse does not compare too.

        and finnaly sure there is a change isshiki can dodge the lasers, but constant dodging while trying to fight a space golem? its just gonna be a stamina drain for isshiki

      • I do all my research though. Plus, when I say that I’m a DC expert, I’m talking about just how awesome I am. Trust me, it’s not easy being me all the time and knowing all of these fun facts. I don’t know where to even use them after a while.

        Isshiki won’t need to dodge for long because he can keep punching Darkseid out. Isshiki’s blows are extremely powerful so that wouldn’t be hard.

        As for the Hellbat, sure that thing is strong but it still won’t be keeping up with Naruto. Also, Naruto just has to make a few shadow clones and that’s it. So imagine how Naruto could break up a moon right? Well, he could summon 1000 Naruto clones with the same strength and then they could break the planet, solar system, etc. That’s why I say the league hasn’t fought anyone nearly as strong as Naruto or Sasuke.

        All of the big DBZ characters are multiverse busters by this point. As for the Flash, remember that this is one of the most arrogant fighters of all time. He’s definitely going to go for eye contact and that’s when he loses. He may have some mild genjutsu resistance at best but nothing that would make Sasuke get even slightly nervous. The Sharingan is one of the most powerful illusion abilities out there after all.

        As for the molecules, the chakra would be holding him firm which is why it would not work. Put it this way, If Isshiki is focusing on keeping himself in place then there is no way to stop him. He would be the man who could stop anyone from even challenging him. Molecules don’t go off on their own if the owner doesn’t wish it. He can just focus and stop each and every one of Darkseid’s attacks just like that. Yes, it sounds insane but that’s just how skilled he is. It’s why I would say Hakai is better but the same thing applies anyway. If Isshiki is stronger than his opponent then he can block it.

  11. How many times have i gotta come back here to deal with your bullshit.

    For one isshiki can dodge the lasers though not for long, and you fucking think darkseid is just gonna stand there and let isshiki punch him? at best if he does darkseid would remain unharmed, afterall, darkseid tanks superman’s punches like its nothing.

    Next up the hellbat, dude the hellbat was able to keep up with speedsters before. EVEN THEN THE HELLBAT HAS ACCESS TO THE SPEEDOFORCE
    and if your this so called big dc expert you should fucking know how fucking op the speedoforce is.

    As for your rasengan claim its complete bullshit.
    You dont understand shadow clones either i guess.
    When naruto makes shadow clones, he needs to divide his chakra into these clones.
    The problem with this is that the more clones he makes, the weaker the clones will be and possibly himself.
    Your mistaken about the shadow clones, they copy the originals abilitys, mind and overall everything, except for power and durability.
    which is why no, naruto cannot create 1000 shadow clones and make big enough rasengan’s to destroy the earth.
    Notice how when he fights sasuke in the final battle, his clones that he summoned held up more agiants sasuke before being killed by ameterasu. but when naruto summons an army of shadow clones, they can be destroyed with just one punch or kick.
    Cause once agian, the more clones he summons the weaker he and his clones get.

    You said you do the research but you fail to know the basics of shadow clones. What a failure.

    Next of all no, legit nobody besides zeno has been able to destroy a multiverse.

    And once agian dude, if the flash was that arrogant, he would be fucking dead by now.
    Besides would sasuke know when to cast the sharingan genjutsu?
    and once agian dude, speedforce, sasuke gonna be to slow to even catch a gaze. even then wonder woman could easily use her lasso of truth to find out about both naruto and sasuke’s abilities.

    And finnaly wtf dude.

    What the fuck you mean the chakra would hold him firm? agian that does not explain anything.

    if he keeps himself in place he is legit gonna die. cause once agian darkseid omega beams.

    if you say he is very skilled why tf did he fall for a fucking shadow clone made by kawaki?
    surely if isshiki is able to control his own molecules with chakra, then he shouldn’t be fooled by such a stupid trick. if he cant see through a shadow clone. then i highly doubt he has the skills to stop his molecules form dispersing. even then, once agian, wheres the fucking proof that chakra can stop a god from dispersing your molecules?

    • Isshiki is much faster than Darkseid so that guy’s not even going to have a chance to dodge. The gap in their overall abilities is simply too great. Now, I’ll grant you that Darkseid’s a tough guy so he’ll throw out some punches too, but he’s not going to be able to keep up and would quickly get destroyed.

      The Hellbat is cool, I said it was. It’s got a lot of travel speed feats but in terms of combat it isn’t on the level of Naruto Uzumaki. That guy could still dodge as he weaves in and out of the blows to land his counter strikes.

      I’m an expert on shadow clones too though and I get what you’re saying but they do have the same power just no defense. So when it comes to splitting up the chakra and everyone uses a Rasengan, it would work. That’s because his abilities are just so broken and insane. There would be no escape and that’s the crazy part. It’s crazy man. Naruto is absolutely broken with those clones and using Sasuke as an example isn’t the best because that guy is crazy too. Naruto can just keep on dishing out the shadow clones and nobody can stop them. He’s just too powerful, too cool, and too great. He has been fighting for years at this point.

      As for the Flash point, yeah he’s died many times because of his arrogance. This would just be yet another to the pile because he would have underestimated Sasuke Uchiha. Sasuke is the last member of the Uchiha clan and a man who sought vengeance but ultimately decided to be the bigger man and went past that. It’s why he is so regarded as a legendary fighter.

      Wonder Woman is never landing the lasso on these guys. They’re way too strong and fast so they would be calling the shots right out of the gate. They’re just too well rounded!

      So with the chakra you have to understand that it’s like doing yoga. You tighten up your core and that makes it so nobody can dissipate his molecules. Picture like when you’re flexing at the beach and it keeps your stomach in. This is the exact same concept. You’ve just gotta trust me on this one.

      Kawaki definitely wrecked Naruto and the others but he’s just that good. As for the proof on molecules, you can even test this at home. Try pouring a cup of water on yourself but then tighten up your muscles and your core. You’ll see that it doesn’t hit the ground at all compared to being relaxed. It’s the same concept here with Isshiki and the molecules. Nobody is taking those away, not on his watch! Lesss goooo, that’s why he’s such a big villain. The proof is in the pudding so to speak. We don’t need scans of it because we know this is the case

  12. Kinda feel bad for you writing this paragraph.
    Worst part is its all wrong.

    Isshiki is not faster then darkseid. if somebody can not only teleport but be able to reach the end of existence within 5 seconds. Idk how you can say isshiki is faster.

    Next part is the speedforce, dude the speedforce can grant the user even more greater speed and time manipulation. meaning naruto dodging attacks will be pointless.

    You overestimate naruto and sasuke SO MUCH.
    you just think they can outspeed everyone?
    somehow your braincells thought of the concept of sasuke and naruto being faster then the flash.

    wonder woman is able to keep up with superman, and i alreayd stated how fast he is, so no shit she is gonna be able to at leats land her lasso once on sasuke or naruto.

    Also how tf did you get the conclusion that chakra is like yoga?
    chakra in the real world is different form the ones in naruto.
    chakra is a spiritual energy in naruto while chakra’s in the real world are vocal points, but i wotn go into detail about it.

    Dude i dont think fucking yoga is gonna be strong enough to stop a fucking god from erasing your molecules.
    Since chakra is spiritual energy it cant fucking stop your molecules from being erased. hell even if it could make contact. darkseids power is just too fucking strong.

    And your stupid cup example is by far the shittiest thing i have ever expirenced.
    water is a fucking substance that moves while molecules are fucking atoms. oh yeah sure, squeeze your fucking muscles or in this case your chakra to stop your fucking molecules which are atoms from being erased by a abstract god. sure that will work.

    I call bullshit.

    all kawaki did was run and use one fucking shadow clone to buy time. he currently is not stronger then naruto yet but in the future its most likely he will be.
    if darkseid can erase your atoms while shooting omega beams at your ass your screwed. and yes also mention in the avatar creation in which isshiki will never kill.

    • I thought I was right on the money though! Let me see why you disagreed and will go from there.

      Isshiki has much better speed feats than Darkseid. Darkseid has pressured Superman in the past but Isshiki did that to Sasuke and Naruto combined which is infinitely more impressive. You can’t even compare the two tbh.

      You’re really underestimating Naruto Uzumaki and Sasuke Uchiha. These two are some of the strongest ninja from the hidden leaf and have saved the world many times. For starters, they have way better hand to hand skills than anyone on the league. Wonder Woman is fast in travel speed but in terms of combat she’s not landing her lasso on any of these guys. She would be quickly mind controlled. After that we have Flash and like I said, he’s gonna make eye contact and that’s it for him. The League would be systematically wiped out very quickly.

      Now lets go into the yoga part because I think you missed my analogy here. Just like how yoga strengthens your core, you can do the same thing to make sure your molecules don’t go away. Nobody can take them away if you don’t want them too. That’s the whole point of focusing up in times of trouble. So Darkseid isn’t winning on some technicality here, he’s going to be blocked right from the jump.

      As for the cup I thought it was a great example. Did you try the experiment? It actually works and it’s pure science. You’re basically stopping your body from making extra movements. So just scale that up to Isshiki tightening himself up against an abstract dude and that’s game over.

      As for the omega beams, they’re good but I’ve seen better lasers in Bleach. Trust me when I say that Darkseid is absolutely doomed here. He won’t know what to do at this point

      • Right on the money?
        boi your ass would be broke as fuck if you thought you were on the money.

        First of all how tf do you say isshiki is faster. like ok he battled naruto and sauske at the same time before and they both can react to light but in their first fight he was buffed by the ten tails chakra and his karma in which karma is very powerful. you even say infinitely impressive as if this feat is legit the best speed feat ever. meanwhile darkseid with no buffs at all, traveled to the edge of existence in 5 seconds. and i wanna let you know the dc universe is HELLA HUGE. way bigger then the naruto universe.

        2nd of all i get it dumbass. naruto and sasuke are strong, no shit sherlock.
        What is causing you to say naruto and sasuke and isshiki have better feats is cause of 2 stupid words
        Combat feats
        what you think is this
        ok superman can sneeze a solar system apart.
        But since he has never done that in mid combat, he cant do it in combat, therfore its irrelevant. Thats what your thinking.
        Or say this
        ok, darkseid traveled to the edge of existence in 5 seconds. BUt since he has never shown that speed in combat, therfore he cant move that fast.
        Do you wanna know how fucking STUPID this sounds. ACTUAL GOOD DEBATERS use all of the characters feats in their time because ITS POSSIBLE FOR THEM TO DO IT MID COMBAT.
        It has been proven that they can use it.
        But for some reason in your fucking head. you think the feats that all these characters have are useless if they never did it when fighting before.
        THAT IS FUCKING STUPID. If debaters really did this i swear to go the whole debate thing would be a waste. we would be missing the characters full power if we just based it off combat feats. naruto and sasuke’s fights agiants people like isshiki and momoshiki were meant to look cool.

        And dude your logic for molecules makes no sense.
        You can stop molecules from being taken away with fucking yoga? and this quote “Nobody can take them away if you don’t want them too”
        Shi dude so if i were to be infront of some dude thats about to rip my fucking arm off, if i just focus and use fucking yoga he wont be able to.
        WHat kind of fucking logic is that.
        Note this


        And yeah i bet you did see better lasers in blech, cause there prob more cooler looking and look to be more deadly.
        When in reality darkseids lasers have done prob more crazy shit.
        oh and i forgot to explain this
        no naruto’s clones dont have the same power as the original, only same abilities and mind. Like i said, the more clones he makes, the weaker the clones are because naruto has to keep splitting more and more of his chakra to his clones. if the clones are detsroyed, the chakra they had in him dont return to the original.
        the narutopedia legit explain this on its first paragraph.
        And even after all that even if naruto’s clones do have the same strength as naruto. there durability like you said is complete shit. Superman could legit one shot all of them with heat vision. hell even better darkseid’s omega beams could wipe them all out.
        Also keep in mind i was only assuming naruto could detsroy the moon with rasnegan i never said he could. i was being generous, im always generous to the mentally retarded.
        AND HELL
        even IF he was able to destroy a planet. that shit would take alot of work, meanwhile the justice league members have almost destroyed universes before.
        after all
        sInCe nArUtO hAs nEvEr sHoWn dEsTrOyInG a pLaNeT bEfOrE
        oR (nEvEr hAs dOnE iT iN cOmBaT fEaTs, hE cAnT dO iT)
        words came from your stupid mouth. now you see why your logic sucks ass.
        combat feats suck ass cause its unfair as fuck and it holds back a characters potential.
        and your a narutard

      • I’m a Naruto fan but I don’t see why you are trying to use that as an insult. If anything I’m super proud of that, I’ve built my whole identity around being a Naruto guy. They have the coolest characters and everything. Without Naruto we wouldn’t have anime! Now lets get back to why I’m on the money here.

        Naruto has shown that he can destroy a planet thanks to how he was blocking the Moon hit. The proof is in the pudding and that’s why I’m a big Naruto fan. He’s the goat tbh and that’s barely even debatable. Think of the coolest characters out there and Naruto is still cooler somehow. You have to admit that this is pretty crazy stuff. So for the Justice League, they’re out of line and out of bounds here. There is no way for them to keep up at all and they will end up just taking massive amounts of Ls all the way through.

        Now the Naruto clans are fragile so that’s true but it doesn’t matter because nobody is fast enough to tag them. They’re just going to be speedblitzing the league the whole time so that’s why this isn’t a fair fight. Can Superman overpower a Naruto clone? Sure I’ll buy that but when you put the whole army into the mix then that’s where it gets a little dicey and pretty much impossible.

        Bleach’s lasers do look cooler but they’re also just flat out better so it is what it is there. I’d take any of those over an omega blast in a second. It’s not just the animation but the destruction effects that we see after that. Darkseid can’t keep up.

        For your counterpoint on the Yoga example, that doesn’t work because he’s physically trying to yank your arm off. I’m saying if he thinks about removing your arm with his mind then you can counter by just focusing on it. Do that and he won’t be able to take your arm away. I’m just going to need you to trust me on this one. It’s really a done deal if you just follow the steps. So…do ya trust me? You just gotta think about it long and hard on why the yoga or just plain focusing will do the trick.

        Isshiki’s feats are still better than Darkseid’s. The whole going to the edge of the universe thing is nice and all especially as an abstract kind of thing but compare that to Isshiki blocking hits from both fighters at once while they’re all moving at light speed. There is no comparison and that’s what I’m trying to tell you. It’s a whole different ball game there. Likewise sneezing a solar system away certainly isn’t as good as launching actual hits the whole time like what Naruto does.

        I’m not saying we completely disregard travel feats but they just aren’t as important or effective as actual combat ones. That’s the big difference here.

  13. Being a narutard is not something to be proud of dumbass.
    narutards are naruto retards who think of stupid logic about naruto, especially in debates like this.
    they always try to find a stupid way for their precious naruto charcaters to win.
    Thats exactly what you are rn
    Theres easy proof of this, you fucking resorted to yoga as a fucking way to stop a god from erasing your molecules. you ignored the fact that sasuke’s sharingan’s copy ability can only copy jutsu techniques, but instead you said it could copy ger’s rtz ability.
    and then theres your stupid combat feat trick. in which is actually invalid and irrelevant in debates.
    And you constantly talk about how amazing naruto is and all its cool charcaters.
    only narutards do.

    and dude, what the fuck are you smokign when you think naruto can destroy a planet cause he survived a moon destroying attack.

    You also keep thinking the clones are fast. ok i get it they can move at light speed. but since there power weakens the more clones that are summoned. then they cant do shit to superman. hell once agian superman could speed blitz all of them anyway. You really honestly dont know how fast superman is. or you do but your trying to ignore it to keep your naruto winning 🙂

    Also it seems you really heavily underestimate the omega lasers. understandable since you wanna win this debate. the bleach lasers are strong but so far they have not been shown to destroy planets. meanwhile darkseids omega beams have.

    and dude no the fuck i dont trust you, i could not trust you as my fucking uber driver. hell i could not trust you with a simple fork for that matter.
    You cant just focus on a certain point on your body to keep it from getting like ripped off. would you be able to focus really hard on your arm to stop some fucking god from ripping it off? woudl you be able to do so? no cause you cant fucking do it.
    Hell i dont think you understand the concept of yoga.
    yoga can help build strength, reduce stress and improve sleep, but NEVER HAS IT BEEN STATED THAT IT CAN HELP WITH KEEPING YOUR ARM ON IF SOME GOD IS TRYING TO RIP IT OFF.
    yoga is a calming kind of excerise, it helps both mind and body relax. not fucking fight a god.
    besides even if it did its not like isshiki knows how to do that kind of shit, we dont see this dude take yoga lessons. and no dude his fucking chakra wont save him either, its a spiritual energy. not apart of your fucking molecules and muscles.

    and for your final bullshit claim.
    HOw the fuck is isshiki blocking 2 light speed fighters better then darkseid reaching the end of existence within 5 seconds. could naruto and sauske do that in 5 seconds? Hell naw dude. plus darksied has teleportation anyway so who the hell cares about speed.

    And fucking way you said sneezing a solar system apart is not as good as naruto landing hits, what kind of bullshit is that?
    If superman could destroy a solar system with a fucking sneeze, then his punches are no shit gonna do way more.

    • Oh I’m a Naruto fan but I’m not familiar with the other term. Either way I’m just spitting facts here. Look, Naruto is a kid who grew up to become the hokage. He’s an amazing guy through and through, someone I think I could have been friends with back in the day. Why? Because he cares for his people and always fights hard. Who wouldn’t want a friend like that? Honestly he may be the most heroic character I’ve ever seen. That time he tried to save Sasuke was awesome. I’m still being impartial though, just saying.

      As for the solar system, maybe the sneeze was just really out of pocket. Either way give me a direct action feat over that any time. I just want my combat feats and then everything will be okay. Trust me on that, it’s just better that way. Naruto actually proves his abilities.

      As for the Isshiki feat, blocking Naruto and Sasuke is better than going to the edge of existence because it’s a combat feat. That’s what I’ve been trying to tell you the whole time but it doesn’t seem like it’s sticking. You gotta trust me on this one.

      I think you really underestimate yoga tbh. Have you practiced and done the advanced yoga techniques? I’m not making any guarantees of course but it really helps in life and makes everything adds up rather nicely. Trust me on this, it just works out really well and feels good tbh. Back to the match though, Superman is fast but not as fast as Naruto. In a combat setting Naruto is much faster and would easily crush Superman in the blink of an eye. Remember that he can use his chakra and ninjutsu to take Superman out. Naruto never gives up, that’s his ninja way.

      I’m also not trying to downplay the omega beams but they’re just too slow and weak to do much here. Batman can dodge them so Naruto would do that easily. Don’t underestimate his immense powers and incredible skills. Trust me, that’s just not worth it. That’s his incredible power. The power of legend!

      • See this is what i mean That your a narutard
        Agian you proved my point. Made a whole danm fuss about naruto’s story when this whole fucking debate is about isshiki.

        Once agian both of your dumb paragraph’s dont take my feats i give cause your only focusing on combat feats, when combat feats ARE IRRELEVANT IN DEBATES LIKE THIS
        Say this, Superman lifted a book filled with infinite pages.
        BUt in your stupid head, you think that strength does not apply in combat cause he never showed proof of it? It does not make any sense

        And you say underestimate yoga like its some kind of character.
        Yoga cannot just stop your molecules form being taken away. Thats not what yoga is meant for, you dont see any character doing fucking yoga during fights.

        And see agian you keep saying in a combat setting, thats the problem here, Combat feats have gotten in to your head and infected your mind, causing you to think that they are valid while regular feats are not, when in reality combat feats were never used cause they poorly displayed a characters power.

        And yes batman has dodged the lasers before, but once agian, you put things out of context cause before he dodged them he shot darkseid with a gun that specifically is meant to kill and weaken him. That greatly weakened darkseids power.


      • Wait I think we got our signals crossed here. I’m a Naruto fan, but I’m not familiar with the other term. Still, how can I talk about space without talking about the sky? That’s how it is with Isshiki. To understand Isshiki we have to understand the story of Naruto Uzumaki, the hero of the leaf. Would you believe that at first people didn’t believe in him but gradually they began to respect the guy? Honestly I respect Naruto and he’s not even real. His determination and willingness to never give up is just inspiring. I think no matter what side of the debate you’re on, that’s something to acknowledge and respect. Don’t you think so? Without Naruto at the forefront we wouldn’t have an anime setting at all.

        As for Yoga, it’s about strengthening your mind. You won’t see the characters actually doing yoga in the present but you know that they have learned its inner teachings.

        Combat Feats are the best way to do things though. For Batman, he dodged them in the show too when Darkseid was at full power. So they can be dodged easily and Isshiki can do the same thing. You know how Naruto is always inspiring villains with his speeches and coming out on top? Well, if you notice that didn’t work on Isshiki. Why could the great Naruto not pull this off? Well, surely it means that Isshiki’s powers are that impressive because anyone would have been bowing to Naruto before long.

        The Superman example is why combat feats are all that matters. What does lifting a book with infinite pages do for me? It can’t have been infinite if it was listed so the whole thing is a wash. Now take Naruto. We actually saw him hone his skills and make friends. He laughed and cried together with them as the whole journey turned him into a man. He then got a lot of feats and those are true feats through and through

  14. I can tell your stupid if you dotn know what the word retard is or what it means.

    Once agian you spilled a paragraph on how great the naruto verse is.
    But what the hell does that have anything to do with this debate?
    You dont see me writing a full paragraph on why the dc universe is great.

    Combat feats are not a good way of doing debates. the reason is, is because we would be missing out huge chunks of what the character is capable of. Yes batman has dodged them too in the show but, dude its the fucking show, not the actual comics. the comics are canon while the show is not. neither are the marvel movies. Besides you say that like batman is weak. sure he is still human but then agian he is the same guy who took down a avatar of darkseid with the hellbat suit.

    and dude, no fuckign way you tried to bring out talk no jutsu into this bullshit.
    if talk no jutsu (and keep in mind its not actually a attack) were that strong, why did he not use it on madara, or kaguya or momoshiki? simple cause its not an actual attack nor capable thing.
    Naruto’s talk no jutsu is fucking irrelevant in vs debates. Its only implemented in the naruto verse plot. NOT ACTUAL COMBAT. Besides you said isshiki was not effected by talk no jutsu like it was some kind of genjutsu.

    What does superman lifting a book filled with infinite pages show? It shows that superman is legit lifting something thats weight is infinite. HE IS LIFTING INFINITY ITSELF.

    And no dude it is infinite, the creators specifically said it was a book filled with infinite pages, Cant argue with the creators themselves. Even if it was not, Once agian dude, superman benchpressed the earth for 5 days. That feat alone beats isshiki in strength.

    And yes yoga has been trained before, however only in calming the mind from fear and focus, but not being able to focus so hard that you can stop your molecules from being erased.
    Besides, no actual proof of isshiki knowing yoga so why bring this up.

    • I was trying not to talk about how awesome Naruto is but that guy’s just so great! I’ll stop here but I highly recommend watching some more videos about how cool the guy is. I’d say he still holds true as an inspiration to us now.

      The show is often the best place for feats even over the comics though. Regardless on how strong Batman is, it doesn’t change the fact that he was casually dodging the omega blast. So Isshiki could do that in his sleep.

      Talk no Jutsu works quite well so it may work on Darkseid too. Of course this is a battle with Isshiki so it’s a bit moot I suppose.

      There is no such thing as infinite weight though so for all we know Superman was only lifting about a mountain’s worth. That’s why it doesn’t help. I have to supersede the creators on this one. The bench-pressing the Earth feat is pretty good though. I think even Isshiki couldn’t pull this off but he has the speed.

      I forget why Yoga was brought up in the first place but whoever brought it up had a good idea there. It’s really one of the best defenses against any kind of transcendent attack.

      • Yeah well you need to fucking stop cause this aint about the whole plot and greatness of naruto, you go talk about that somewhere else.

        Besides batman really only dodged one laser. and thats cause he had to shoot darksied with a radion gun. Just cause batman could do it does not mean isshiki can too, sure perhaps he could dodge a few though i highly doubt he will last long enough to avoid them throughout the fight. and thats me being generous, not including phasing, turning and invisibility.

        Talk no jutsu is not an actual attack. Its just a made up attack by the fans, cause of how naruto’s kindness brings, its apart of the plot of naruto. Talk no jutsu would not work againts darkseid, cause for one he really has no fucking clue who darkseid is and his history.

        There is no such thing as infinite weight, in the real world at least.
        But this is a FICTIONAL WORLD, where the writers make up all kinds of bullshit that does not make any sort of sense that breaks every law of our real world. Infinite weight is possible in fictional worlds, of course depending on what the theme of this fictional world stands for. For dc, infinite weight is possible.
        And a mountains worth? really? You have shown 0 proof of superman lifting a book that weighs like a mountain.

        And yes isshiki is fast but like i said, superman can keep up with zoom, or hell move in a nano second. And since darkseid has been able to outspeed superman before, Then he would be able to match isshiki in terms of speed, besides dude, teleportation man, darkseid can do that. So speed really is not a key factor here. Besides even if isshiki was faster, how do you know if isshiki has the power to really kill darkseid? From what you shown, at best isshiki could do star level attacks but then agian Im gonna allow this, just to prove how many times you make bullshit up and i still can prove it wrong, even if isshiki was star level power. Darksied took universal attacks to the face and barely took damage.

        And no dude, idk why you brang up yoga when yoga is not gonna help at all

        Molecular dispersion cannot be stopped by mere yoga training.
        Besides i dont remember yoga teaching you how to resist your molecules from being erased.
        Its not something yoga is meant for.

      • I feel ya but I was watching some episodes the other day and the series ages like fine wine. Do you remember Naruto’s inspirational speech when he told Jiraiya that he would never stop going after Sasuke? Perfection.

        As for the yoga part, it can certainly help because nobody can take your molecules away without consent. Think about it, your molecules are tied to the very fiber of your being so you can always block it.

        As for Isshiki, Superman isn’t great in combat speed. He gets slapped around by every fighter under the sun. Isshiki would have a field day just messing him up and it pains me to write that but I had to put it out there. It just be like that over and over again! NOooooooOOOOOOO, but it’s facts though.

        As for Darkseid, he’s also too slow. That’s the problem, Isshiki would be hitting him with combo after combo and eventually that would be game over. There would be no stopping him.

        Batman dodged the laser with ease though and he’s as slow as a human so that’s game set and match for Darkseid. He’s getting packed up real quick because Isshiki doesn’t play like that. That guy always goes for the win, no exceptions. It’s why he is known as an absolute beast in combat.

        Infinite Weight doesn’t exist anywhere because Infinity doesn’t exist. It doesn’t matter what series we’re talking about, that’s just how it is.

  15. Bruh i give you a entire week to think of a good answer and this is what you give me
    Absolute shit


    2nd of all, that claim was just so fucking dumb,Yoga can help cause nobody can take your molecules without consent? now i know your trolling, your entire website is just a troll.
    Last time i checked when someone erases your molecules,they erase your molecules. It does not matter if you have consent or not cause there gonna take them, BESIDES YOGA HAS NEVER BEEN ABLE TO COUNTER SOMETHING LIKE THAT. A person does not control their entire body. beside sits not like isshiki was capable of doing so.

    And once again you underestimate superman for the 100th time. Malcolm wheeler would be dissapointed in you. Once agian dude its in a comic book where his combat speed is not as greatly shown cause its a comic book, not a fucking tv screen, and dont mistake superman being on the justice league tv show or movie, those versions of superman are completely different ones from the original superman.

    And you never shown proof of isshiki having the means to outspeed darkseid, that is if he can even hurt him. So even if he was faster, that does not instantly mean he is gonna win, how the hell do you know isshiki can even hurt darkseid?

    As for batman, dude once agian, batman shot him with a radion gun to weaken darkseid, so the effects of darkseids omega beams would be slightly weakened. Besides even if isshiki could dodge them, its not like he could do so forever. Besides you act like molecular dispersion are the omega beams are the only 2 abilities he has,

    Man also has Psionic possession, where he uses psychic abilities to possess an individual and negate any superhuman abilities they may have.
    Meaning darksied could legit negate isshiki’s strength and speed. Boom, with isshiki’s strength and speed gone he is done for.
    Darksied also has matter transmutation, where Darkseid is able to simply transmute matter by force of will.
    Also energy manipulation where he can mentally control most known forms of energy, allowing him to erect protective force fields and project withering energy bolts.
    Hell he has telekinesis too, He could throw objects at isshiki, attack with telekinetic power or attack isshiki’s mind.
    Speaking of mind he can control isshiki’s with mind control too by just sheer will.
    How is isshiki meant to stop all this bullshit, and remember bud
    isshiki cannot win this fight, the gap is far too big.
    With abilities to mind control him, negate his strength and speed, auto tracking lasers, molecule erasing, and telekinesis. not to mention super strength which btw, it has been stated that he posses infinite strength, and hell even if isshiki gets through all of that, darkseid can just spawn another one for him to fight.

    and finnaly
    let me make this clear for your puny brain.
    Last time i checked i dont think in the real world you can be able to summon a bunch of clones or perform a rasengan. I dont remember you being able to use this so called chakra people have in the real world to perform jutsu.

    • Hey I thought I was spitting facts here. I waited a week to make sure my response was perfect and everything! Okay so lets break this down from the top. Like I said, I won’t go into the Naruto lore again so we’re good there even if I do recommend it. It’s a tense tale of victory and coming of age along with a lot of good life lessons.

      You still underestimate yoga and are missing what I’m saying here. Put it this way, if someone has reality warping powers, they can’t just blink you out of existence. Why? Because you’re sentient and can resist whatever you want to resist. It’s as simple as that and that’s what I’m trying to explain here. I used the word consent because it comes down to willpower. Yoga was a good example for it but regardless just focus up and nobody can destroy your molecules like that.

      For Batman I’m talking about Justice League Unlimited. No gun there, Batman just casually dodged the blast by running and jumping so Isshiki could do the same thing too. This is the man who took on Naruto and Sasuke combined. His speed is on a completely different level on all accounts. That’s why he definitely wins this one without any issues.

      Even in fiction infinity cannot exist. Just because they write something doesn’t mean it can actually happen. Like if there’s a comic where a villain’s armor is said to be unbreakable, that doesn’t mean it actually is. Everything is breakable in some form or another just like everything has limits. No part of fiction or media can override that because that’s just how it is.

      You asked how Isshiki can hurt Darkseid but I’ve already brought up his fight with Naruto and Sasuke. A few well placed punches and combos would take Darkseid out in an instant. It wouldn’t even be close because that’s how strong Isshiki is. Same with his speed, Darkseid has never fought someone like this before. His reaction times are good but his combat speed and strength aren’t close to Isshiki’s level. Superman takes Ls every week so he’s doomed too. I’m not underestimating them but Isshiki is in a completely different weight class.

      Isshiki also can’t be mind controlled because of his will power.

      • Your delusional on what i mean.

        for starters Not all reality warping powers involve erasing something. another thing is that just cause you dont want to get your molecules or whatever erased does not mean you have the power to resist it. Isshiki has not been shown to have resistance to molecular dispersion, cause molecular dispersion is something that the naruto series has never discussed, the closet being baryon mode. and isshiki cant just use his will to to negate any of darkseids powers, cause for one he was able to do so, like for example if his will was that powerful why did he not just use his will to keep living and take kawaki as a vessel? like he was slowly dying but yet his will could not help him, the answer is, his will is irrelevant.
        Just cause you focus on a certain point does not always lead to succsess.

        As for the batman part, justice league unlimited is not canon. so idk why you bring that up.

        and dude fiction can exist if the writers decide it to exist. You cant argue with the writers themselves, cause its a argument you will never win. The villan saying the armour is unbreakble is debate if it is and needs to be proven first, if its proven then yes its unbreakble,if its not then theres a chance it is. The point is, denying what the creators write is a real risky and overall not solid claim to make.

        Just cause isshiki has been shown to use all these flashy moves in the anime and manga does not mean they would work on darkseid, sure he was able to smack out naruto and sasuke with punches and kicks but at this point pretty much any punch or kick will send naruto and sasuke flying anyway, like delta for example, delta could keep up with naruto alone.
        And i like you you ignored the psionic possesion that completely negates isshiki’s speed and strength making it useless. as well as avatar creation and matter manipulation.
        Avatar creation for darkseid is too op, the fight will end with isshiki being overwhelmed and dying to darkseid.

      • Okay so lets treat this like a bowl of chipotle and start from the top. I’m not saying you can negate death but you can make sure that nobody destroys you. Okay, put it this way. Imagine you’re in an ice cream shop and somebody throws a bowl of ice cream at you. No amount of yoga will stop that bowl from hitting you. Now on the other hand, imagine you’re holding the bowl of ice cream and someone says to throw it at them. No amount of yelling can get you to throw the bowl. That’s exactly how the molecules work. If you don’t want to lose it, then you won’t. Those are the facts of the trade and what I be using here.

        As for the Batman part, I’ve been talking about the show one for the last hundred comments because it’s a perfect example of why I don’t take the omega lasers so seriously. You can just do some aerial flips and dodge them all the way through. That’s game set and match so….that’s really all that you need. Again, I didn’t want to have to go there but you forced my hand.

        Sometimes I have to supersede the writers. Now granted I prefer to only do this as a last resort but they aren’t always correct. Not all writers know about how some of these concepts work so that’s when I step in to gently correct them. Even fiction has rules that it must abide by.

        Isshiki’s flashy moves as you put it, would be more than enough to end the threat known as Darkseid once and for all. Again, I point to his fight with Naruto and Sasuke. This man as moving smoother than butter and that wasn’t even at 100% of his power. Bump him up to that level and it really is over. Darkseid has yet to show that he can handle this kind of power. Also for the record, Delta would easily beat Darkseid as well.

        As for the mind control, I touched on that in the end. Isshiki won’t be mind controlled, his willpower is far too great for that. At best you could probably try to knock him out but even then I don’t see that working very well at all. No sirrrr!!

  16. Your on legit complete levels of bullshit,
    this is a fucking planet level threat kind of bullshit.
    Its amazing how you can make up the most absurd excuses and think to yourself
    “This is a great argument, he will totally agree with this.”
    legit nobody on this fucking planet would agree with you, unless their legit high on crack or are just like you, a narutard.

    the ice cream bowl example was by far the dumbest example you have given me to this very day. You never considered the fact that if the guy tells you to throw it at him, you throw it at him. And idk how you can make a connection between a guy throwing ice cream at someone with a god dispersing someones molecules. The reason why the person in your so called example wotn throw the ice cream is perhaps he is too nice to try and do it and does not want to harm others. He is resisting the temptation to throw the ice cream, and its been a proving thing, but when its a god who is gonna disperse your molecules to the point where they dont exist, its out of your doing. You cant stop the dude from doing that. Like people who have gotten their molecules dispersed by darksied REALLY did not want their molecules to be dispersed and destroyed, but could they stop it? no they cant, if they could stop it then molecular dispersion would be useless and darkseid would never use it, but he does, cause people cant resist it.

    And dude like i said the batman your talking about that dodged the laser is not freaking canon,even if it was canon its not like isshiki had the means to dodge the lasers forever, like i said before, they would just keep chasing isshiki until they hit him, and once agian dude, they can turn invisible, and isshiki does not have super eyesight to spot invisible things, after all this is the same man that fell for a shadow clone before he died. he cannot see those lasers when there invisible.

    and no dude, taking the writers place to make your claims right is by far the dumbest bullshit you have pulled so far. The writers who write naruto and dc dont try to make the laws and physics of that world the same to the real world. I swear i legit laughed my fucking ass off hell even showed it to a bunch of other debaters online, I swear bro, some were pissed, others called your claim dumb, and some called you a idiot, which in this case i cant argue with them. Fiction’s limits are that of the writers imagination. I could create a story where there are these special aliens called tabu’s,who can warp reality and turn people into creatures, or have them have an infinite supply of swords they can spawn. There are no limits to fiction really, the only limit is the creators imagination, even if it defies the laws and physics and rules of the real world. here look, here is the result i typed when i asked google “does fiction have rules” the response was, “Writing fiction is one of those mysterious feats that feels impossible without some good advice and a few writing rules to guide you along. The truth is there are no truly ironclad rules of writing—although there are plenty of useful guidelines”
    Lol whats next you gonna tell google, a world wide website that they’re wrong on this?

    And once again dude, isshiki fighting naruto and sasuke at the same time is impressive and all, but darksied has wiped out a whole universal army in one go. And now i know your 100% a retard when you said delta can beat darksied. that is just wrong on so many levels, whats next, is tenten gonna beat darksied now?
    Pathetic, your taking up precious air in america.

    and finnaly, isshiki has NEVER been shown to have resistance to mins control, even if he did all those other abilities that i mentioned like psionic possesion, could negate all of isshiki’s strength and speed. making it useless. Besides like i said, if isshiki’s will was that strong, then why did he even die when he was crumbling away? surely will power can beat that.
    And once agian bud, isshiki will never beat darksied cause he will always be fighting a avatar of darksied, darkseids true form could easily wipe out isshiki, and the whole multiverse along with it.

    • Honestly I thought you were going to agree with me this time so I was a little surprised. How could you not agree with me after such a motivating example? I be spitting out facts!

      Okay so Darkseid’s true form is cool and all but his best moments are from normal mode. I would argue his appearance in the movie Batman/Superman Apocalypse was the best that he has ever looked. His speed there was good but still not Isshiki level. Call it animation hype if you want but Isshiki showed himself to be on a completely different level right from the jump. Right from jump!!!

      As for the mind control, again anyone with willpower can resist it. As a power it’s just not helpful to anyone as a result. Isshiki died because willpower can’t stop that but he can stop someone from invading his mind. You just have to flex and believe in yourself. That’s all that you need and then you will be able to come out on top every time.

      Delta can absolutely beat Darkseid for most of the same reasons as I’ve put for Isshiki. She’s just way too fast and strong. Remember how she was actually pressuring Naruto? The savior of the leaf?? Mr. Hokage???? Yeah that was Delta and she made it look easy. That’s something I’ve never seen Darkseid do and we won’t see him do that. Isshiki is on a different level.

      If a human like Batman can dodge the laser even once then that means Isshiki can dodge it forever. That’s just facts, I’m not tryna spin it or anything but I’m just calling it like I see it. There’s no possible way for Darkseid to hit Isshiki and speed is half the battle in these things.

      I have to overrule Google as well then. Even fiction has limits and there are certain things that even an author cannot do. Surpassing limitless and such is one of those things. Everything has a limit and that is truly an ironclad rule that even authors cannot break.

      I actually liked my ice cream bowl example, I kind of impressed myself with it tbh. Look, put it this way. You’re just saying that nobody can take your bowl away from you. That’s all we’re doing but we’re doing it effectively. Believe in the you that believes in yourself as they say. I personally think it’s really an effective way to look at it so that nobody can stop you at all. It’s the same exact thing with the molecules. There is no difference that way and it’s why the game was over before it had even begun. So molecules is not something that Isshiki needs to worry about. It is completely off the table because he’s not giving up his ice cream. I still say it’s a perfect metaphor.

      Look, Isshiki is just too strong and powerful. Darkseid is out of his league against such a fierce foe who wouldn’t even bow to Naruto. He bows to nobody!!

      • You need help
        Put down the naruto lore and get some help please.

        First off, darkseid’s true form destroying a multiverse with just its presences alone outclasses all of darkseids avatar feats. Like who the hell just wipes out a multiverse with just them being there. second of all, your focusing on the speculation of isshiki’s fight, just cause he looked like he was fighting in high speed combat does not mean he would triumph in speed everytime. besides like i said, darkseid has teleportation, in which isshiki legit has trouble with. darkseid could just teleport away from isshiki and keep fighting long ranged until isshiki is worn down, of course not that he needs a strategic way to win.

        Another thing, once again dude, Willpower will not always win agiants pure mind control, cause guess what, his mind control power also works off his will too. He was able to control millions of beings at once. Besides theres no proof of isshiki having the ability to stop mind control with sheer will anyway.
        No proof=A big no for me

        Delta legit will get destroyed by darksied in a fucking instant, hell darkseid could destroy the naruto verse all on his own anyway, He has conquered universes far stronger then the naruto verse.
        But in your head you think the naruto verse is the strongest universe that ever existed right beside dragon balls universe. Its not, far from it.

        Once agian dude, that feat was not canon, justice league unlimited was not canon. Thats a different version of darkseid, The justice league unlimited is different from the actual canon characters, WHY TF DONT YOU LISTEN. even then, darkseid would still destroy. Stop thinking batman is just this weak human, sure he is human, but you would be suprised just how fucking strong he actually was.
        Batman endured a beating from reverse flash, and that guy can punch with enough force to destroy a fucking star. Hell even superman said that batman was teh most dangerous person on earth. hell even when toe to toe with superman himself. Sure most of the time he had to come prepared but still.
        Batman is no ordinary human, he survives and does shit thats almost impossible, even for super powered people

        And danm dude, you have to be shitty desperate to want isshiki to win if you think your gonna overrule google. Just proves more on how a big narutard you are.aka naruto retard. Yoru going so far as to say google where the entire worlds info is placed on, where millions of writers and authors agree on.
        All so that you can get a Naruto character to win? Now i know this is 100% a troll, a lie your doing these debates just for the trolls.

        Idk how your dumb ice cream example will even try to relate to a god erasing someones molecules,That short paragraph you wrote was so dumb that idk what to say anymore, the way you tried to convince me was just so dumb that its legit impossible for you to convince me now, This ENTIRE TIME YOU HAVE SHOWN NO GOOD EVIDENCE, NOT A SINGLE BIT OF ACTUAL INFO AND NO WAY TO BACK UP YOUR SOURCES THAT ACTUALLY MAKE SENSE. DO YOU KNOW WHAT A GOD EVEN IS? IF YOU DO THEN YOU SHOULD KNOW A GOD LIKE DARKSEID WONT HAVE TROUBLE OF DISPOSING SOME WANNABE GOD. The explanation does not make any actual sense. I will say it for the last time

        Isshiki cannot just focus so hard to keep darkseid from erasing his molecules
        He does not possess the power or will to do so.
        He has never shown he can resist these kinds of things.
        Isshiki has not been proven to be stronger or faster as he has not shown to fly to the edge of existence in 5 seconds or teleport, and he has not been shown destroying a universe.
        isshiki’s strength and speed can be negated by darkseid anyway so strength and speed wont matter cause his strentgh and speed would be negated, meaning gone, meaning he would be slow and weak.
        isshiki will never truly beat darkseid cause darkseids true form exit’s in another realm. meaning no matter how many times isshiki kills darkseids avatar, he will never kill darkseid truly.
        and darkseid can easily create a new avatar meaning this fight would keep going until isshiki is warn out.
        Isshiki cant kill darkseids true form was he would not be able to touch or hurt him, cause he is a abstract being that cant be touched. even so, darkseids presence would wipe out isshiki before the fight even began.

        Im legit am not gonna listen to any bullshit you try to throw cause the evidence you have shown me has not satisfied me, and i doubt it would for anyone.

      • All right, Ima help you out here because I’m nice like that. I said I wasn’t going to bring up the Naruto lore already. Trust me, that wasn’t easy because there’s so much cool stuff to talk about. Naruto saving the village, the powers of destiny, learning what a true hero is…etc. But I’m not going to do that or talk about how inspiring Naruto is. We’ve been through that anyway.

        I’ve been spitting out facts since day 1 so I’m not sure why you haven’t agreed with me yet. Lets try it again though.

        Darkseid having an abstract form doesn’t help him. Being abstract just makes it that much harder to land any true blows. So this actually puts him at a disadvantage in a few ways now because he’s gonna be scrambling awfully hard to make a difference! He’ll need to use a physical form to try and take out Isshiki and good luck with that. Isshiki is far too fast and too powerful. A single good combo out of him would finish the job. Trust me, I didn’t want it to go this way but it just happens like that sometimes.

        As for Isshiki being faster and stronger, he’s always been that way. Like you said, Darkseid has an abstract form so any feats like going across the universe in an instant are meaningless in that mode then. When you’re abstract, distance is relative after all. In a way you’ve helped me see Darkseid’s greatest weakness and it certainly is a doozy.

        I still stand by my ice cream example but either way the point is that Darkseid can’t mess with Isshiki’s molecules. It’s just not happening and he has to go for a direct attack or it’s all over. That’s the only way he can even try to beat Isshiki and even then it’s a longshot at best. Isshiki is just on a completely different level here and won’t be going down easy. He has the power!

        You really underestimate Delta by the way. Remember I mentioned a while back that the Naruto verse could solo Darkseid? A big part of that is because many of their individual fighters could beat Darkseid. Certainly all of their top tiers without a whole lot of effort. They’re just way too much for him and while it pains me to say all of this…it had to be said sooner or later. Darkseid is strong but he’s not on the same level.

        Likewise, willpower is enough to stop mind control and reality nonsense. Just focus up and nobody can blink you out of existence. It’s just not happening. No way…no how!

        I’m no troll though! My blog has a 100% accuracy policy and so I have to just report the facts like Darkseid losing here. Yes, sometimes I do have to overrule Google, authors, etc. Sometimes I just know the material best and there’s nothing wrong with that. You could say that I’m an expert in most forms of media at this point tbh. It’s just what I do. It’s my passion…my calling you could say. I just can’t be stopped and that’s why I lay down the groundwork for future generations. I think a lot of debaters may even start to look up to me some day.

        As for the final point about Batman…nah man he’s just a normal human. Hype him up as much as you want but he’s just an ordinary guy in a bat suit and that’s why him dodging the omega blast is the ultimate anti feat for Darkseid. Literally after that happened I knew it was game over. Doesn’t matter that it is non canon, it still happened so that’s intense. I’m sorry it had to go down this way but Batman is the guy who doomed your case

  17. From day 1 you were completely off, you were smoking on shit that i cant comprehend.

    I wanna point out that darkseids TRUE FORM is abstract, if he does not have a physical form then he cant be hurt. BUT Its stated that darkseid can indeed use his powers with his true form, meaning darkseid can still attack with his true form,not that it would server a purpose since darkseids true form would erase the entire multiverse, and no dude, isshiki does not have the power or will needed to survive such a attack, no isshiki cannot absorb it, and he cant resist it with pure will, after all green lanterns entire power draws off of his will, and not even he can survive it.

    2nd of all their meaningless cause darkseid never really needed to use his avatar feats in his true form, cause like i fucking said, darksieds true form can destroy a multiverse just by being there in the fight not doing anything, its stated that darkseids true form is WAY more faster and stronger then the avatars in which darkseids true form can create, meaning all the feats i mentioned previously, still count.

    3rd of all, so far your ice cream explanation is complete shit, your ice cream example is showing a guy who tells another guy to throw the ice cream at him but the other guy wont? It does not make any sort of sense, if darkseids molecular dispersion was that easy to counter then he wouldn’t be using it. isshiki does not even posses the knowledge needed to even pull your stupid example. And finnaly how is isshiki meant to know his molecules are getting erased. like how darkseid could just erase isshiki’s body in one go, and by the time he does that isshiki wont have enough time to react to his whole body getting erased. Like what kind of bullshit your gonna pull out of your ass to save isshiki on this claim?

    Once agian dude willpower cannot always stop mind control or reality erasing

    If they look up to you someday there going to fail horribly and be made fun of around the world, your debates are not always 100% accuracy and some i had to fucking explain for you. and then there are 70% of your debates where your fucking wrong.
    You cant overrule google cause im pretty sure google is far more accurate then you would ever be. and you cant overrule the authors who write their stories or characters. Its their characters and their story and universe they write, they are not limited to real world laws and physics. They have full reign over there story and you dont have any authority to say that their story has to follow laws and phsyics, the fact you even said that means how desperate you are to get your character to win, its showing, its showing alot.

    and once agian i dont underestimate delta, delta is strong in the naruto verse, outside it though she can get destroyed by alot of characters. and darksied is just one of them.

    And finnaly you HIGHLY underestimate batman, For some reason idk why but his feats are something that realistically should have never been able to pull off. But he did, so it counts. sur eits highly likely batman would be destroyed by isshiki, but keep in mind, you mentioned batman dodging a omega beam in the justice league unlimited series is once agian NOT CANON. if its not canon, its not true, and hell its cartoon batman and darkseid, where as darkseid and batman’s comic book version in which i had referenced to in day 1 has been ignored moretimes by your stupid ass.

    Im getting really tired of dealing with your stupid debates.

    • I don’t smoke though. It doesn’t seem healthy so I stick to soda and cannolies if I need a quick sugar rush. That being said, it’s always better go for kale and some healthy dishes like a tuna wrap. That’s the good stuff.

      Okay so for Batman, sure he has some good moments but he’s still just a human. The show may not be canon but it still happened and has to be addressed. The omega beam is not hitting someone as fast as Isshiki if a human can dodge it. It’s just not how it works and I say that very soberly here. Look, Isshiki is on a different plane of existence compared to Batman and even Darkseid. The reason Darkseid can’t win is because he’s too slow.

      That’s what I was saying for Delta too. She’s too fast and would overwhelm Darkseid with a flurry of blows. It would be crazy but very interesting at the same time. He would have to really try and move at top speeds to stay away from her and that’s not going to work.

      As for Google, I have to overrule it sometimes but as a last resort. As for the authors, I get what you’re saying but at the end of the day there are universal constants that have to be observed and if the author tries to side step that then I have to block it. It’s not personal to the author or anything but it’s where I make my big stand. There’s no such thing as invincible or limitless so you can throw those words out of your dictionary.

      My debates are 100% accurate though. That’s the whole point of the blog rule. Without it there would be chaos everywhere. It would be absolutely crazy.

      The ice cream example is perfect because it’s all about choice. If Darkseid tries to take the molecules away then Isshiki won’t let him. I mean, why would he? Losing your molecules is like an instant loss so Isshiki would focus up and stop that. There’s no way Darkseid could hope to overpower him there. It’s just not happening, no shot! No shot at all!! Molecules is a dangerous game and one that no combatant will let happen.

      As for the Darkseid true form stuff, again abstract is just a weakness here. It takes Darkseid away from the driver’s seat and into the trunk. At that point he is just a sitting duck for Isshiki the whole time. He wouldn’t be able to do anything because he’s everywhere and yet nowhere. His best bet is using his traditional form

      • That debate was interesting but they heavily underestimated Kaguya here. Her abilities are pretty much beyond our comprehension and it’s hard to see Darkseid doing much at all to her. Her speed is absolutely bonkers

  18. They dont underestimate kaguya, you just overestimate kaguya isshiki and you underestimate darkseid. Ik in the anime kaguya and isshiki look more cool then darkseid in teh cartoons and comics but we cant measure how strong a character is based on how cool they look in their shows or comics. Darkseid has destroyed universes, while like they said, kaguya was star destroying levels at best. And isshiki was pretty similar to kaguya in terms of overall power. but darksied has destroyed universes and his true from can destroy the multiverse. Thats the whole point, one has destroyed universes while the other has probably destroyed a star or can at least destroy a star.
    and its ironic how you say darkseids universe destroying feat is not impressive because he never has used it in battle before, but then you proceed to say batman dodging a omega beam is 100% accurate despite it being non canon and that you underestimate batman for being just human.
    Those people in the quoro are thousands of people out there who are debaters also and know what their talking about, meanwhile your here talking about combat level feats when in debates like these they dont matter. The whole world would agree that darkseid can beat isshiki, and hell the whole naruto verse since he can destroy it in one go.

    • I like Kaguya so I don’t want to sound partial here but she just destroys Darkseid in all of her versions. You have to admit that in shows is where a character often looks best since the medium is able to show movement and everything better than paper can. So in the end I have to admit that Darkseid isn’t winning this one. Destroying universes is good but it doesn’t mean that he has the combat feats to back it up. He isn’t fast enough to hit Kaguya or durable enough to tank her attacks. As a result he ends up being on the losing side here and can only watch as the battle gets more and more out of hand. It’ll soon be game overrrrrr.

      As for the people on the form, they’re good but I’ve got more experience than just about anyone. Keep in mind that I’ve been debating for years on just about every subject. The road to the Super Bowl goes through me in a way and that’s the same for debating. Darkseid is strong but he loses to most of the Naruto top tiers very quickly. They’re just too broken and have too many special abilities. There’s a reason why they call them a part of the Big 3.

      • You just admitted to me being right, That the shows look more cooler then the comics an manga but that does not mean that cause kaguya fought in the anime with much cooler and faster effects while darksieds was slow and most of his feats were in the comics, that does not mean kaguya wins. And i dont get how your brain thinks this way. If darkseid can destroy a universe with an ability like the omega sanction, what makes you think he cant do it during combat? Thats like saying, Somebody can run 5 kilometres around a track in under an hour but suddenly in their grand finals where they race agiants others he suddenly cant run 5 kilometres around a track in under an hour. That logic makes no sense. If someone has done something like destroy a universe or planet, then no shit its not hard to do the same shit in mid combat. Besides at least darkseid has destroyed a planet before, when has kaguya been shown to destroy a planet? Must have missed the kaguya destroys the universe scene.

        In fact hell, I want proof, anime proof of any naruto verse character right now destroying a universe. Right the fuck now, show me proof of that bullshit. And you better think hard about it.

        and btw the people on the form are a bunch of thousands of people who debate. and if you have so called debated for years then you should at least know the basic fact that combat feats are not actually used within vs debates. or hell know the basic power scaling levels

      • Nah you’re admitting that I’m right. Okay so first with the debating, trust me I know about combat feats more than most. Even Death Battle could learn a few things from me on how to scale powers and abilities correctly. I’m usually right at the front of the pack and it feels good but it’s also a lot of pressure. Trust me, sometimes it gets to me, knowing that I’m a beacon of hope for the debating community.

        As for Naruto characters destroying a universe, that doesn’t happen because the team is too skilled to ever let the villains pull that off. The heroes aren’t going to be doing that either because they treasure life too much. As Naruto would say, a friend in need is a friend indeed. He will take the shirt off his own back to help someone in trouble and that includes their entire universe.

        What can I say, animated feats are the best kind at least when it comes to pure speed and power. Like you said, Darkseid is rather slow and not particularly impressive relative to Kaguya or Isshiki. That’s what really hurts him here, how can he possibly bounce back from that? The comic feats are good too but it’s harder to gauge pure speed which is why characters like the Flash get hit by Deathstroke or Superman gets tagged by Batman. It’s because they’re not as fast as they would have you think by travel speed.

        As for Kaguya destroying a planet no worries I miss that scene sometimes too.

        In the Last, Toneri cuts the moon in half casually with his energy blast. Naruto and Kaguya are leagues stronger than this and would easily bust a planet as well. It’s why we look to Naruto as the GOAT, the champion of the oppressed…the hero to the masses….the guy with a plan! It’s just how he rolls

  19. Mk so a couple things that i need to debunk here, one while death battle is known for being great debaters they sometimes can be biased. which is what your fucking doing, like they fucking said madara could beat aizen. Besides dude if your SOOOO good at debating and like at number 1 at debating why is death battle more popular then your sorry ass. Like hell barely anyone knows you.

    And since you failed to show a naruto character destroying a universe that means i win in that part, and you mentioned them treasuring life too much. Kinda funny cause thats legit what i fucking said in the naruto vs superman debate, superman has never used his actual strength and speed in city’s and overall populated places, but your like nah its cause he never show’s it in combat, but when you say they dont do it cause their are innocents around its all okand you just assume they can. Like we at least saw superman take on characters that can destroy universes. but we never saw naruto characters do the same.

    And no dude, animated feats are great and all but only when there the only ones to go off on and if their canon. if their canon and supported by other pieces of canon then it can be considered, if not then we cant say its real, animation is meant to make things like naruto and sasuke’s fights look cool instead of just flipping through pages of a manga. Sure yes dont get me wrong, naruto and sasuke are fast but agiants darkseids teleportation and traveling to the edge of existence, its just the gap is too big there.

    and finnaly for the stupid moon feat, its a fucking moon not a plent, even then toneri only cut the moon in half not destroy it entirely. even if toneri could destroy the whole moon, its no where near a planet sized attack. the moon is like 27% of the earth. Not even close, even if kaguya and naruto could destroy a planet anyway, i said any proof of naruto characters detsroying universes, and since you failed to do so.
    i win

    • I’m an up and comer. I’ve only been doing this for around 20 years so soon I’ll be a household name. Honestly you can basically take that to the bank as a guarantee. The world shall know the name of DReager1 because I’ve just got the hype and the knowledge to show the world why fictional character debating is my forte. You could say it’s my passion, my dream….my ability! Yooooo

      Okay enough about me though. So for the moon, sure it split in half but it shows that he could also destroy a planet that way. If you split the Earth’s core in half like that then of course it’s going to blow up. That’s how the Earth and every other planet rolls. There is no way to get around it. So when you take that into account it becomes my win. Naruto has gotten way stronger since then with no limit in sight. He continues to show us all why he is the hero of legend. The man who will become the Hokage of the Hidden Leaf Village.

      But in all seriousness, animated feats are the best ones because you actually see what’s happening. If helps to dispel any errors that the comic may have or to just shed some light on more of the specifics that a comic simply couldn’t give you. It’s just a difference in medium but a very important one if you ask me. We can’t end up losing sight of this or it’s going to be game over for all of us. Naruto and Sasuke just have better combat feats than Darkseid. It is what it is there.

      Superman’s strong but we’ve seen him lose to just about every character in existence. It’s why I say that comic feats are good but they open you up to a lot of craziness too while animated feats tend to be more consistent with the characters. You want consistency? Pick up a few episodes of Justice League unlimited and you will be set for life. That’s definitely the way to go about this.

      I’m not trying to say that Superman and Darkseid are weak. Far from it tbh, but they just aren’t ready for the Naruto verse. Would it help if I said I consider Superman to be the strongest comic book character though?

      • You need to seek mental therapy immediently.
        20 years my ass when you dont even know the basics

        For one the earths core is not a fucking bomb, 2nd how do you know toneri has the capability of cutting the earth which is 73% bigger then the moon, and hell even destroy it in one go anyway. And your ass said naruto had no limits when its your bum ass that get blabbering in the giorno vs sasuke debate saying everything has a limit. im not agreeing to it, but your making yourself into a hypocrite. and if you think about it, naruto’s dream was to become hokage and gain the villages acknowledgement, that was his goal, but darkseids goal was to rule the universe, and in fact he does, he has won before. Darkseid worked toward a much more bigger goal then being the leader of some village.

        Once agian im not gonna say it agian, animation feats are not the best source of feats, all feats either from animation or comic, as long as their canon they count.

        You fr underestimate superman cause like i fucking said, he loses caus ehe never uses his actual strength, cause he keeps being put into situations where he has a fucking planet to protect and that he does not want any person killed. thats why in justice league unlimited you see him lose, besides he is still learning anyway, just like how naruto did through his story. and no dude superman is not the strongest comic book character. and im not trying to prove that superman can beta anyone, im proving that superman can legit solo the naruto verse, and im sure millions of people would agree with me, and hell darkseid can do the same with just his avatars.

        Combat feats are blinding you and hell if you know death battle then you should know they dont always use combat feats, they consider combat feats to be the same as normal feats. ever watch superman vs goku? or thanos vs darkseid, or hell, MOST OF THE NARUTO CHARACTERS GET DESTROYED IN DEATH BATTLE, and the 3 times naruto characters have won, 2 of them were wrong, the only valid person who actually one was might guy, while naruto and madara did win, it was biased and ichigo and aizen should have won, but every other naruto fight, they were right

        Garra vs toph, toph wins
        Rock lee vs sanji, sanji wins
        obi wan vs kakashi, obi wan wins.
        sasuke vs hiei, hiei wins
        master roshi vs jiraiya, roshi wins
        They are all right, and darkseid could clap all these guys if they all banded together to fight darkseid, they would lose.
        Sure in naruto vs ichigo naruto won and while i like the outcome better, in reality ichigo would win
        in madara vs aizen, yes im happy madara won, but sadly for me aizen would really win.

        The point is, Most of the time, death battle is right about there vs debates, and they use actual feats that make sense most of the time. So in reality, you should really take notes of their work.

      • What do you mean? They call me a debating expert because I always got my thinking cap on. A single sentence from me is like whole books from Einstein. That’s because I be spitting out facts like it’s nobody’s business! Yeah that’s right, you’ll always see me right on top because that’s how I shine. I be showing everyone how to be true champions in debating.

        The Earth’s core is basically a bomb. If you tap that even slightly then the whole planet’s going boom. It’s why in all the alien movies you see them blasting away at the center to blow it up. Even Frieza targeted the core right away. It’s a sound tactic that is always a very good option. We can scale Toneri and Naruto up.

        As for Naruto not having any limits, I say that loosely. I agree that there is no such thing as being invincible or anything unscalable but what I’m saying is that he keeps on getting better because he’s such an emotional character. How do you not cry when he’s on the field of battle? he has speeches that would keep most army generals awake at night.

        All feats count for sure but I’m just saying the best ones by far tend to be from animation and I need you to agree with me there because I think that’s where the disconnect is. Look at the comic page saying Darkseid went across the universe and then just google a gif of Naruto running through the forest in sage mode. It’s clear that Naruto looks a whole lot faster because a comic can’t depict speed like that.

        Superman is the strongest comic book character though. Full stop. Nobody can beat him, not Darkseid, not the Beyonder, not anybody. Superman will always be the strongest at least among Marvel and DC but the problem is that the verse is still mid tier at best when you compare it to the anime franchises. They are just way too strong, too fast, and most importantly…too powerful! They would absolutely crush everybody in their way and they would make it look easy. That’s what we’re seeing here.

        As for Death Battle, they’re often wrong. Even the fights they get right are usually for the wrong reasons. From the fights you listed, Gaara should beat Toph, Kakashi slaughters Obi Wan, Sasuke beats Hiei, Roshi beats Jiraiya, and Rock Lee beats Sanji. They got quite a few of them wrong. Ichigo and Aizen would beat Naruto and Madara so I agree there. Goku would slaughter Superman too.

        They really just need to visit my site more and I could help set them on the right track. I’ve been doing this for a long time and you could even call me a bit of an authority on the subject. I just need to get one of those big Naruto T shirts with Naruto grinning on it. Then I could go on the news and try talking to people about it. I’d be spreading the word and all that jazz. Now that would be exciting right? Man I’m giving myself goosebumps just thinking about it.

        So yeah that’s why I’m known as a master debater and it’s why Darkseid can’t win this one. He just picked a fight in the wrong verse.

  20. I highly doubt death battle even knows who you are, and if they did, no way in their right mind would they call you a debating expert, your far from it. You cant just make a website about debating and then just call yourself a debtaing master,

    First off a debtaing master should know the laws and physics of the real world, meaning a simple debater should know that the fucking earths core is not a bomb, the earths core is fucking solid. and its hot but its not a fucking bomb. hell even if it did, the explosion would not be enough to destroy the earth anyway.

    Naruto’s speeches are inspiring but you say it like your worshiping a fucking god, naruto is great and his anime is great and the story is great but thats not what were fucking here to talk about. a great story does not always mean the best characters in fights.

    Animation feats are allowed but just cause its more flashy and easy to understand does not mean its the best feat someone has. The comics go in depth into superman and darkseids array of powers more then any tv show or movie explains.

    Another thing is that no superman is not the strongest character in comic book history, there are tons of characters out there that have beaten him and are far stronger. The anime franchise may look more cool, but suprisingly, the dc and marvel universe clap pretty much alot of them. sure the anime verse has much stronger characters, but ones like dragonball, one punch man, naruto, one piece, bleach,my hero acedamia, jojo’s bizzare adventures and demon slayer, there all gonna fall at the hands of marvel and dc. Just cause anime looks cooler and sounds cooler, does not mean that they can win.

    While yes death battle can be biased at times, most of the time there right

    For one gaara vs toph, toph legit controls all things about earth, meaning she could take control of gaara’s own sand and even better, use gaara’s sand armour agiants him. and hell gaara needs chakra to control his sand while toph has free control over every piece of sand and ground on the planet, besides toph’s senses are crazy shit. once gaara runs out of chakra, he is fucking dead. or hell toph can use gaara’s sand armour to pierce him anyway.

    kakashi loses to obi wan as many are suprised by this
    In close combat it may seem kakashi would win but may i remind you that obiwan has mastered all 7 lightsaber combat forms, and hell a lightsaber is far superior then your average kunai.
    Another thing is that kakashi uses chakra and he has a limited supply of it while obiwan’s force power is pretty much everywhere meaning kakashi has the risk of running out of chakra while obiwan does not have to worry of running out of force power. speaking of the force, the force can pretty much block almost all of kakashi’s jutsu. another thing is that kakashi’s sharingan is almost completely useless, he cant copy force techniques, and genjutsu wont work since jedi have mental barriers and expirence with telepathy meaning obiwan can break out of genjutsus easily. not to mention that obiwan has expirence with tutaminis, basically deflecting energy attacks and has dealt with sith lightning, meaning kakashi’s main element lightning was not new to obiwan, and hell, obiwan could just crush kakashi’s organs right then and there, isntant win, and may i remind you that kakashi has lost to someone with similar powers like the force, im talking deva path pain, and kakashi died fighting him.

    sasuke sasly lodes to hiei to my dissapointment.
    For one while sasuke is definetly much faster and has a bigger arsenal, hiei had counters for almost everything sasuke had. since hiei is a fire and ice hybrid and has elemental resistence, meaning he can power through all of sasuke’s lightning abilities, not to mention he has fire immunity meaning ameterasu was out of the bag for this one, hell not to mention, hiei’s darkness flame is legit the same thing as ameterasu. and hiei is immune to it. and hiei’s jagan has telekinesis to match sasuke’s rinnegans deva path powers and can protect hiei’s mind from any genjustu sauske tries to cast, and hell hiei can also fight as a ghost so theres that. and not to mention hiei is far stronger.

    sanji beats rock lee to my also dissapointment.
    And i wanna bare in mind that they had rock lee use the 7th and 8th gate in that fight, and its not 100% confirmed if rock lee does have the 7th and 8th gate, meaning they highballed lee greatly
    with observation haki, sanji could counter lee’s drunken fist style. And hell even if we assume lee can use the 7th gate and has the same capability as might guy which might guy using the 7th gate could blow up the island, sanji can match the straw hats which destroyed meteors, meaning lee only had the 8th gate to win, which for one btw we dont know if he can use it. but we are going to assume he can. 8th gate lee definitly beats sanji’s strength, but his speed, no. sanji can match luffy who can move 13 x FTL and with sanji raid suit which makes him faster. now of course there is a small chance lee could win, which im happy about though sanji wins wayy more often.

    See how i just had to explain this to you in one comment? stop thinking about your ass on the news, The news does not care about random debaters.

    • Hey I was the one doing the explaining here. The news should put me on, I’d be showing everyone the ropes real quick. The Earth’s core is pretty much a bomb. Notice how all the big villains say they’ll destroy the core and then we’re all doomed? It’s all part of the plan and if the villains believe it then shouldn’t I also believe it? It just makes the most sense that way.

      As for the battles, I’d say those are good write ups. But I don’t go too far with the Naruto speeches, I just think the guy’s really cool. He’s so good that they even made a show about his kid which is crazy. Not too many characters can actually go ahead and say that.

      Now as for Superman not being the strongest, you gotta rethink that one. There’s no comic book character who can beat Superman. I still have Marvel and DC as fairly low among the universe tier lists but they have their moments. The main issue for them is just that they lack really powerful fighters and it goes back to the whole animation thing.

      Sure, comics can give more details but animation really shows what they’re doing and ends up putting them on the best display. A good animation feat can only be beaten by another animation feat.

      Toph and Obi Wan are way too slow to beat their opponents. They would get absolutely speed blitzed for the entire fight which is why they don’t stand a chance. At least Sanji and Rock Lee is close but those two battles are complete stomps and Death Battle missed it. I think their weakness is that they often tend to miss the forest for the trees in their analysis. I get how that can happen but it’s a big mistake all the same.

  21. The amount of wrong you have put is so severe.

    For your villian standpoint, no villan has said they would destroy the earths core to destroy earth, what they mean by destroy the core, perhaps its a power source that keeps a certain something alive, they never specifically say the earths core.

    Superman is not the strongest comic book character, maybe you should pick up a comic and find that out though.

    as for toph and obi wan you highly underestimate their abilities.
    For one toph can feel the earth even when ist not connected to the ground, meaning every movement gaara’s sand makes, toph can sense it, not to mention toph has fought other earth benders too and they tend to be able to redirect the attack before it can reach them. And like i said she has crazy senses, and hell bare in mind since gaara did mix his sand with gold dust back then, that means toph had 2 ways of taking control of gaara’s sand. gaara needs sand to attack while toph has sand, rock, and legit the entire earth at her disposal

    as for obi wan you highly underestimate him, obiwan can indeed react to kakashi’s attacks, because obiwan can react down to the nanosecond, that not only suprasses kakashi in catching lightning, but also surpasses sage of six paths naruto dodging madara’s light fang attack, suprising as it is. not to mention obi wan can use the force to glimpse the future and predict kakashi’s movements, and the force can also buff obiwan’s reaction speed too, The real best shot kakashi has to really win agiants obi wan is if he had the dual mangekyo sharingan, the problem with this is that its not actually his power so he is kinda cheating, even then, obi wan would still win more times, since he has been equal to other jedi who can move fucking black holes.

    No way is kakashi beating someone like that.

    and idk if you agree or disagree with the sanji vs rocklee outcome but just gonna say, sadly sanji beats lee, and they even included 7th and 8th gate lee too so i would say it was pretty one sided and yet sanji still won.

    • I’ve read plenty of comics and trust me when I say that Superman is the strongest by far. No other hero or villain can keep up with his pure power and ability. It’s just not happening. There’s a reason why they call him the Man of Steel after all. No other fighter is as balanced.

      Yeah the core was right there:

      Blow that up and the planet goes kablooey. Think about it this way, if the Earth has no center then it will naturally fall apart right? That’s basically the concept I’m getting across.

      I’m a little mixed on who I would consider to be stronger between Sanji and Rock Lee. I’d say it’s a really close fight but ultimately would probably lean on Rock Lee just a bit. His speed’s more impressive and should compensate for Sanji’s healing factor and durability.

      For Obi Wan, he couldn’t even react to Dark Vader’s slow attacks in episode IV and quickly got taken out. He has some good force abilities but needs a lot of concentration for them. Kakashi won’t be giving him any time at all and will just show up to finish him off. I’d say the speed factor is just way too big.

      For Toph, I don’t doubt that she can sense Gaara’s attacks coming but the issue is that she would have no way to dodge them. At the end of the day Gaara is still way faster with his attacks so they would all crash into her.

      • You take a whole week and this is what you give me?

        For one in the dragon ball universe ALOT of characters are known for just blowing up planets with ki.
        AND EVEN if we were to assime that destroying a planets core would destroy the planet itself, that does not mean you destroyed it by your power alone. sure you detsroy the core and then the earth gets destroyed cause it has no core the you never actually destroyed the earth by your power alone. and what makes the impression that nauto is strong enough to output such destruction. at best he is continent level.

        And i legit just explained that sanji can move 13x the speed of light, while 8 gates guy barely managed to dodge attack moving at the speed of sound. and even if we scale the 8 gates to six paths naruto dodging light, technically sanji would still be faster and hell naruto barely dodged the attack too anyway, and bare in mind im not even including sanji’s raid suit which can increase his speed.

        For obiwan you must be stupid cause for one thats fucking old obi wan, no shit kakashi can beat that version of obi wan, i was reffering to prime obi wan in his good days. And most force techniques do require concentration but only slightly, after all jedi are out there throwing star destroyers into orbit, moving black holes and stopping planets from being destroyed. and hell did you forget obi wan could just crush kakashi’s organs instantly?

        For toph, that proves your underestimating her greatly and need to get on avatar the last air bender rn.
        she can sense his attacks cause almost all of gaara’s attacks are sand based, toph can feel any earth, dirt gravel sand, rock you name it. even if its not connected to the ground, meaning she has full control over gaara’s own weapon. sure i do want gaara to win the fight, and death battles version of it is pretty bs to me, so if there is a way gaara can win that im missing i hope so, same goes with sasuke and hiei i want that checked too.

        Obiwan vs kakashi though, im happy with the result.

        sanji vs rock lee, tbh its hard to argue with that, as what they stated was pretty good, they did highball lee so theres that.

        sasuke vs hiei not happy with the result, hopefully theres a way sasuke can truly win.

        Gaara vs toph, Im not happy with it either, hopefully theres something im missing that gets gaara the advantage to win, gonna have to do more research on it

        naruto vs ichigo, happy with the result even though ichigo would slap.

        Madara vs aizen, happy with the result but aizen would slap

        The point is
        No naruto is not capable of destroying a planet
        Since isshiki is not able to either darkseid can slap him.

        and obiwan claps kakashi
        sanji claps lee
        and so far toph claps gaara, (for now) at least until i do more research.

      • I guess but if your attack destroyed the planet, even if it’s not instant then it should count as a planet busting technique. So by that logic I would argue the high end Naruto characters should definitely count.

        Now for Sanji, I wouldn’t say he’s 13x FTL like that or you’d have to scale up a bunch of other characters to FTL as well. Zoro, King, Luffy, Kaido, Big Mom, etc. He is super fast though and same with Rock Lee. Sanji just hasn’t shown power on the same level so Rock Lee should win in a battle of kicks and close combat blows. Rock Lee’s better hand to hand skills is also a big factor here.

        For prime Obi Wan, he still wasn’t looking all that tough in the first 3 Star War episode movies. I’ve seen nothing to suggest he would even be able to react to Kakashi, let alone endure his blows. Not saying it can’t happen but Kakashi has a big advantage right out of the gate. They both potentially have instant death blows with force crush and Kakashi’s mangekyo sharingan but the former would be difficult due to chakra. Kakashi can steel his body with the chakra and that should block the force. Similar to how they can walk on the water and trees, being crushed like that will likely be a nonstarter.

        For Toph, she can sense it all but that’s where it ends. Gaara’s specific sand was blessed by his dead mother and is why it can act even without his orders. She wouldn’t be able to manipulate his sand because that’s effectively the mom’s soul protecting it. Normal sand would give them a 50/50 split but his sand will be enough to defeat her. She’s still not fast enough to dodge his attacks even if she knows that it’s coming. His sand was also able to react to both Rock Lee and Sasuke’s speeds. That’s going to be too much for her to break through.

        Yeah Ichigo and Aizen definitely go all in. Sasuke and Hiei is a really close one for sure.

        Sanji beating Rock Lee is at least a fight I can sort of wrap my head around but definitely don’t agree on the Toph or Obiwan ones.

        As for Isshiki, he could definitely bust the planet and either way he still has the speed advantage in combat and a whole slew of abilities that Darkseid doesn’t have access to

  22. ight so lucky for you i did some research on toph vs gaara and i forgot that gaara had lightning and wind release jutsu as well allowing him to counter as least toph’s abilities.
    So congrats you got one right

    Obi wan however your still wrong. Its not just the movies that are canon there are other sources of obi wan’s feats in different series and yes they are canon. First yes obi wan’s force pushing powers are similar to pain’s shinra tensei or almighty push whatever you wanna call it. so it is resonable to think that kakashi grounding himself to the floor with his chakra is something that could counter it, but it doesn’t, After all kakashi who had a team agiants pain still died and lost. and even then its not hard for obi wan to just make a even bigger force push anyway.

    Second of all not not really it should not count as a planet busting technique, your attack is not destroying the earth only the core hell the core is a solid. even then what makes you think naruto and isshiki are capable of destroying the earths core? at best their continent level and the earths core takes up only 15% of the earth. The fucking moon feat was better at 25%.
    And even still darkseid’s omega beams are able to destroy a planet alone, no destroying core needed and darkseid would barely have to break a sweat to do so. meanwhile naruto over here using up most of his chakra to destroy just a continent.
    and also how tf is isshiki capable of destroying a planet, what is he gonna do kick the earths core? or hell kick the earth itself so that its destroyed? see in physicall power isshiki beats naruto and sasuke, while in power alone its hard to say since we never got to see his super attack he was about to launch in the village. but its prob city level at best.

    • There we go, big props to Gaara here. That man is definitely not backing down without a fight and even after one!

      For Obi Wan, yeah he tends to look better in the comics but even then he still doesn’t have a whole lot of speed at all. Part of what made Pain so deadly is that the guy is fast as lightning and doesn’t have a whole lot of limitations. He can just run in and land a whole lot of damage at the drop of a hat. For Obi Wan there is no worry there so Kakashi can just overwhelm him in close combat or blink him out of existence with the Mangekyo. Either way there wouldn’t be much Obi Wan could do to counter it.

      As for Darkseid, the guy is super strong for sure but he’s still not touching Isshiki. The difference in their combat speed is just too great. Isshiki was able to mess with Naruto and Sasuke with ease in a 2 on 1 fight. It’s hard to even begin to approach against that level of power. I don’t think Darkseid will be ready for that smoke.

      As for Isshiki destroying the planet, yeah I see him just blasting at the ground or punching it and it would split like an acorn. Since Naruto and friends could do something similar to the Moon, we could scale it up for the planet

      • In running speed kakashi beats him but in reaction speed no. pain’s almighty push is similar to obi wans force push and kakashi really could not touch pain at all without help, the difference is that pain needs 5 seconds before he can use it agian, but obi wan can use force push as much as he likes. Hell he can even deflect alot of kakashi’s ranged attacks too especially lightning, and with a good lightsaber swing to cut kakashi’s arm off, its gonna be a very secured win for obi wan. even mangekyo sharingan is not reliable either. since for one kamui already takes up so much of kakashi’s chakra not to mention its unlikely kakashi could get a solid hit in with one since obi wan’s reaction is bs and the force can sense the future and guide movements, so really what you mean by overwhelming obiwan, in reality its just kakashi burning more of his chakra supply, cause really kakashi’s arsenal cant get past the force, obiwan really just needs to force push and block with force fields, that does not take up any sort of energy.

        Another thing, dont overestimate isshiki’s speed, while yes he is fast but at best he is FTL and the lasers just so happen to move FTL, and they can phase and turn invisible and change directions instantly. pretty hard to counter and get away from. i mean darkseid easily beat the flash and that guy is far faster then isshiki in both running and reaction speed.

        And no dude, isshiki is not capable of splitting the earth in half with a punch or kick, if he could then naruto and sasuke would be fucking dead. isshiki is physically strong though how are you sure that he is physically stronger then darkseid? darkseid too has super strength. and the moon takes up 25% of the earth so really naruto and his freinds are not capable of such destruction to destroy planets.
        And then even if we assume naruto sasuke and isshiki are capable of detsroying a planet,
        darkseid has destroyed stars, galaxy’s and universes. meaning darkseid would still be stronger even if they were capable of destroying a planet.

      • Obi Wan wouldn’t be able to hold Kakashi back the way Pain could. The difference in their raw power is much too vast. Additionally, Mangekyo is long enough range where Kakashi could still take him out and while Obi Wan could react, he isn’t fast enough to dodge. Even the lightsaber swing won’t work because he can’t tag Kakashi. The difference in stats makes it so that Obi Wan’s reaction times won’t really come into play.

        As for Isshiki’s speed, yeah I’d agree that he is FTL. The big difference between him and the Flash for Darkseid is that the guy doesn’t really have to worry about the Flash’s attack strength so he can land good blows. Meanwhile Isshiki will be shaking and baking him with every hit so he can’t focus in the same way. It’s a lot harder to counter when you’re being thrown around like that.

        I’d say Isshiki can pull it off but even if he can’t, the hits will add up with the tremendous amounts of speed that he has at his disposal. He can just keep on comboing Darkseid and the guy wouldn’t really have any kind of counter to that beyond just eating the hits and hoping he can land a counter

  23. Wrong

    Your right the difference in their raw power is too vast, cause obiwan’s power crushes pains, Sure pain could wipe out an entire village but obiwan and other jedi’s have been able to move blackholes. In long range combat obiwan still has options. for one he could simply just use the force for many things, either bring kakashi over to him with the force similar to universal pull. force choke kakashi to stop him from using jutsu, or just shatter his organs, or hell take apart of the ground and start throwing stuff at him.

    Second of all your wrong, while the flash does not have superhuman strength, the flash has used his speed to make it his super strength, after all, the faster the object, the more power it packs with it, just like a bullet. and besides we dont know isshiki’s actual physical strength. but what we do know is that he is weaker then baryon mode naruto, and i know danm well baryon mode naruto ain’t planetary level or star level. meanwhile darkseid is able to overpower superman, the same superman who bench pressed the earth and was able to punch through universal barriers. and darkseid made easy work of superman without much effort.

    And no isshiki wont be able to just combo darkseid for long, at best isshiki would punch or kick darkseid with darkseid just standing in the same position when isshiki attacked him. bare in mind darkseid has the classic super strength, speed endurance and stamina that puts legit almost every justice league member and other characters to shame. You cant assume isshiki can just combo darkseid until he dies. cause you dont know how physically strong he is or how tough darkseid is

    • Obi Wan typically gets wrecked by street level fighters like Darth Maul. I don’t see him taking out any of the pains, much less someone like Kakashi. His force abilities would have a hard time getting past Kakashi’s chakra shields and general ninjutsu.

      As for the Flash’s strength, he does get strong for sure, but not enough to be comparable here. Isshiki’s physical strength is under Baryon but it’s still absolutely insane. A quick punch from him would lay most fighters out flat. There are some who could ultimately survive some blows and I can say that Darkseid may be one of them but he would still go down.

      Darkseid would get combo’d because even if he doesn’t feel a lot of damage initially, it adds up. He isn’t fast enough to stop Isshiki’s punches even if he can tank them and Isshiki is fast enough to dodge every counter blow

      • K first of all
        Street level fighters? darth maul a street level fighter? im sorry but this is a universe where there are space wizards who can move black holes. and darth maul was deadly as hell.

        Second of all while isshiki’s strength is indeed powerful, tbh, in the world of star wars where theres space wizards, its actually quite average, maybe even lower, isshiki’s physicall strength has not been stated, but here is what info we can gather. during jigen vs naruto and sasuke, jigen was strong enough to kick sasuke out of his susanoo and tbh, from what we see thats the best strength feat we get. hell that feat alone beats all of isshiki’s strnegth feats that we seen, but if we were to assume isshiki was indeed physcially stronger then jigen, well then still i dont think isshiki’s physicall strength compares to the jedi’s force abilitys, cause most jedi’s have been strong enough to move black holes, luke obi wan, as well as anakin, there all capable of doing so, as proof of their comparisonin power.
        Tbh heres the problem
        The moment a naruto fan hears the word otsutsuki, they lose their shit and think, hey this guy is god like. They get over hyped far too im not saying there not strong, im not saying their weak, im saying they just get overestimated far too much, there gods and yet are being outdone by a a space wizard with a laser sword. a guy with his underwear outside his pants. a blonde italian with his space ghost, a bald dude and a fucking radish farmer. the otutsuki’s have never even fucking shown star level feats or hell at least black hole feats, but all those who i have listed can pull that shit off rather more then once. well i mean theres one who cant but he has hacks activated so it would not matter.

        finnaly theres your last shitty rant.
        when you say darkseid would get combo’d and you say that it would add up. Your fucking sounding like isshiki is pulling off the 200 hit combo tod one shot thats about to win him the fucking 2022 tournement of naruto ultimate ninja storm 5 thats coming soon.
        Hell do you even know how fast isshiki is? light speed, wanna know who is faster then that? darksied, cause he has shown speed feats that are way faster then anything isshiki had to face. and with darkseids bundles of attacks that can just nullify his speed and power with psionic possesion. speed and power cant help him, and psionic possesion is not just some laser darkseid shoots out and that if isshiki gets hit, his power gets nullified, it happens instantly, to whoever darkseid wants it too, hell darkseid can just mind control him, and if that does not work on him he can always use his mind control to enslave army’s to fight for him.

      • Street in the sense that Darth is really only breaking a street if he swings all out. Additionally his defense isn’t all that good either.

        As for Darkseid getting combo’d, we don’t gotta make it too complicated. Isshiki is landing 200 combos right off the gate. He’s button mashing all the combos and Darkseid isn’t fast enough in combat speed to get around that. He would barely even be able to react while Isshiki is pounding him all the way into the ground. The difference in power level is just far too great and that will be what keeps Darkseid out of the count. As for mind control, that’s not working on an alien like ISshiki. His willpower is far too strong.

        Isshiki is godlike though and lets not overrate Star Wars. That verse is fairly weak as far as franchises go. They have a lot of glass cannons but nobody that could hold their own against Isshiki for more than a minute. He’s on a completely different level and should be able to completely take out the whole verse. Good luck using the Force on a guy with this much power, he’ll just shrug it off.

  24. First off darth maul is not street level, in the movies he looks weak but in reality he is far stronger,
    isshiki throwigna 200 hit combo is complete bullshit since we never see him throw a 200 hit combo.
    You never layed evidence as to how strong isshiki is in physical strength. i had to do it for you, and for him to just be able to punch a susanoo down, its actually not all that impressive from a naruto stand point, as several peopel have already put down sasuke’s susanoo, madara naruto, hell tsunade is capable of destroyign susanoo’s, even kabuto managed to match sasuke and itachi’s susanoo, so isshiki knockign sasuke out of his susanoo is really nto as impressive as people who can throw start destroys into orbit or stopping a planet from exploding, or moving a black hole.
    You just overestimate isshiki far too much, like enormously. hell there even has been stated facts that jigen was physically stronger then isshiki, and its been proven by the facts and what we know, like i said, the name otsutsuki is really milked to a poitn where there not even that strong, when naruto and boruto fans here otsutsuki, they think its this all powerful god, and yet, urashiki who is a outsutsuki lost to kid naruto and boruto. darkseid meanwhile, is far behodn teh otsutsuki’s, like no otsutsuki has been capable of destroying the universe. Like when has the anime or manga shown an otsutsuki destroying a universe hm?

    sure star wars characters are not as strong as darkseid, but suprisingly they can take on otsutsuki members way easier then any character from naruto that we have seen so far.

    isshiki is notinvincible and the moment naruto and boruto fans see isshiki beatign naruto and sasuke they think he’s the most strongest thing ever and could take on the likes of everybody, but in reality, he really is gonna get destroyed by alot of characters. popeye can take care of isshiki easily,goku vegeta trunks and majin buu can with ease just to name a few. ichigo, aizen, saitama, gojo the list goes on.

    • Wait a minute, Popeye is getting low diffed by just about everyone. Toon Force isn’t all it’s cracked up to be. I do agree that DBZ characters can beat Isshiki but don’t think Gojo is up to it. Otsutsuki’s are still immensely powerful though and solo over 90% of fiction. They are incredibly powerful and we can’t forget that.

      As for Darth Maul, yeah the movies weren’t kind to him so they’re gonna need to try and fix that. As for the 200 hit combo, it’s not something you have to show. We just know that with his speed he could pull it off. Whether it takes days, hours, or even years…..Isshiki will keep on dishing out the damage. There isn’t a way to easily counter that and it’s why he just keeps on winning. He can’t be way….no how!

      • Dude popeye is a cartoon god, its impossible to kill him, the dude can regenerate form nothing and even knocked out the guy that was drawing him, hell he has a star level feat. isshiki would never be able to kill him, while popeye kills isshiki in the most comical way possible, gojo can beat isshiki do to infinity, the infinity force field thing slows down isshiki the closer he gets to him, besides hollow purple is pretty much a one shot move, as well as gojo’s domain expansion. otsutsuki’s are strong but no there is no hell in the way they solo 90% of fiction, everybody on this planet would disagree with you while there are some rare ones who would agree but are really afraid to watch naruto characters lose.
        as for isshiki’s combo, isshiki’s stamina is not infinite and cant last years, meanwhile darkseids power can cause he has done so multiple times, while isshiki only got a couple of feats under his belt. isshiki cant just keep doing the combo for several days weeks and years cause eventually there will be that moment where darkseid kills him with a deadly blow. hell from the moment the battle starts it would have ended just as quickly.
        As for popeye agian the thing is, characters who can break the 4th wall and can manipulate the effects around it are just impossible to actually kill, deadpool for example, now im not saying deadpool is this ultimate god, far from it, im saying that he just can never be killed. even if you disintegrate his entire body to nothing, he still exists in another world. im not saying deadpool can use that to his advantage. what im syaing is toon force characters are more op then you might realize. Now of course toon force charcaters feats are really inconsistant, one moment the character destroys a universe, then in a another episode he gets knocked out by a door slamming into their face. but popeye, does not play that way. Hell he even threatened the writers of the show to make him win a battle. how tf is isshiki meant to beat somebody who can make himself win, besides popeye can just turn isshiki into eggs. its all about the cartoon bullshit, its complete bs and does not make sense, but thats what makes it so strong.
        Characters out there can easily beat isshiki on their own.
        popeye is one of them, hell ben 10 is one of them as well due to alien x. that thing is a a legit god, and i hate to say it but it also beats giorno’s rtz, now see thats a character that can beat giorno with rtz.

      • Popeye has a lot of Toon Force but at the end of the day that won’t help you win any big battles. You have to be able to win physically and dominate the field right from the jump. That’s what Isshiki does and so Popeye would lose pretty big. I also have to say that Isshiki would beat Giorno and Ben 10. Both of those guys are good, but again we’re not talking about guys who can stand up to someone like Isshiki.

        His combat speed and strength are far superior. He’s also got regen and a bunch of cool sci-fi abilities. What are these fighters going to do to that? Even Deadpool would get absolutely crushed and his regen wouldn’t be able to keep up.

        I’m not saying that Isshiki is completely unstoppable but he is in a different league here. There’s a reason why he is considered one of the top contenders in the whole verse. His raw stats are absolutely crazy!

  25. Jesus, a whole week of waiting for your stupid reply and all i get is a bunch of bullshit that can be debunked by any debater in 10 minutes.
    First off im confused on wtf your trying to say when you have to physically and dominate the field. that made 0 sense, toon force is not just popeye’s greatest weapon, when the dude eats spinach, the man goes wild and pretty much can match anyone he wants too. even without spinach he is invincible and unkillable. popeye has so many ways to kill isshiki its insane.
    ONce agian your also wrong about giorno and ben
    those two would be able to destroy isshiki in their final forms
    once agian i explained it to you before
    Isshiki cannot resist nor has any counters to rtz, and would just be death looped.
    and ben with alien x can legit pretty much do anything, warp time, reality, space very easily, even its thoughts can become real, it can create and recreate a universe instantly, isshiki has not done shit even close to what alien x can do. and thats just scratching the surface of what it can do

    Also why would popeye have to worry about combat speed and strength and shrinking abilities. the man cant be killed, no matter how many times isshiki hits popeye, he wont even be damaged, Thats whats problamatic with toon force characters like popeye, no matter how strong fast or skilled or how many time or reality warping abilities you may have, it does not matter, in the end toon force characters can just never fuckign die, its complete bullshit and unfair and i love it.
    still sceptical, how about the time god himself turned off all of reality and popeye just ignored the effects and just appeared right next to god.

    as for deadpool, yes deadpool would get destroyed by isshiki, but isshiki will never actually kill him cause the dude is just gonna exist in another universe.

    You make isshiki sound like he is this ultimate god, all this dude did was beat naruto and sasuke. like i mean ok, pretty good but saitama, aizen, gojo, giorno, and hell the dude we are meant to be talking about darksied, can all destroy the two of them as well, like i can just imagine this, your a naruto fan and you think naruto and sasuke are these all powerful characters, but then when jigen and isshiki beat the two of them you lose your shit and think jigen and isshiki are this all powerful god, thats what a naruto/boruto fan would think

    • Yeah it took a little while this time since I was off the grid for a while. But lets take this point by point and I think I can win you over to our side. So for Deadpool, his regen is good but it’s not Isshiki good. A few good shots will take way too much energy away from Deadpool so he wouldn’t regen anywhere.

      Beating Naruto and Sasuke was incredibly impressive, nobody on that list aside from Saitama and Aizen could do that. Gojo puts up a solid fight but Giorno gets washed immediately. I’m not overplaying it but Naruto and Sasuke are basically gods with their final power levels. So being able to beat them at all is absolutely something worth praising and it’s why I’m always looking so shocked. It’s just unbelievable what they are able to do!

      So for dominating the field, what I’m saying is that physical abilities are always the end all factor. You can’t expect to actually be able to go out there and secure the wins with Toon force alone. Isshiki has proven his strength while Popeye hasn’t. Popeye does have a degree of super strength yes, but once it gets into Toon Force then it really doesn’t help his case. It just hurts it if anything.

      Same with Ben 10, altering reality isn’t going to accomplish much in a fight like this since Isshiki can resist its effects. Popeye resisting effects is like Toon Force there.

      As for Darkseid, he has physical abilities but at the end of the day he’s still getting dominated in terms of strength and speed by Isshiki.

      • Dude first off i never fucking said deadpool could beat isshiki, im saying even if isshiki kills the deadpool he fights, the deadpool he fights just appears somewhere else not dead. But for you sake of ever loving christ, isshiki does win

        Beating naruto and sasuke is impressive, but legit all the people i mentioned on that list can beat the two of them.
        For gojo, they cant touch him, cause gojo’s invisible infinity is just gonna slow them down as they get closer and closer to gojo, besides domain expansion is pretty much an instant win in his favor, caus eit legit freezes both naruto or sasuke, (im not 100$ sure if gojo can hit more then 1 person with his domain expansion)
        For giorno, same effect, there never gonna hit giorno no matter how many times they try.
        And darkseid just erases the fucking planet like its nothing.

        Physical capabilities are not everything. there not always the end factor, just cause your stronger does not mean you will always win, same goes with speed, just cause your faster does not mean you always win. The only way to really beat popeye is to have someone legit equal to him, bluto, who is another charcater in his show has before. but thats cause he legit posses the same abilities and strength and speed and etc as popeye. Cant believe how bullshit crazy you gotta be to think this way.

        First off since when has isshiki ever resisted reality warping effects, like show me the god danm proof of this fucking dude resisting reality warping effects. isshiki cannot beat alien x, that thing is a fucking god and its pretty much impossible to beat that thing, unless you pull off some bullshit, now the good question for your stupid mind is why popeye can resist it. 2 reasons
        1, he has already resisted god turning off reality before
        and 2, cause its toon force, toon force is the definition of complete bullshit out of nowhere. cartoon charcaters like popeye just come up with bullshit that make 0 sense. meanign popeye can indeed beat alien x cause he can just bullshit his way through its rules, isshiki cannot do that, cause
        1, he has not shown to even resist reality warping effects
        and 2 he does not posses fucking toon force.

        You never even proofed isshiki to be faster and stronger then darkseid anyway so whats the point in makign the claim that he is stronger and faster, cause of visual effects?

      • Okay yeah as long as we agree that Isshiki takes Deadpool out then we’re good.

        Gojo’s not winning this one. We saw the limits of his ability in the tools arc as well as Shibuya. That level of power would be too much for him and Infinity would be completely overwhelmed.

        Giorno and Darkseid get destroyed immediately. Now for the Toon Force part, you don’t need proof of resisting it because by definition everyone can resist it at one point or another. That’s just why Toon Force isn’t a good way to win fights. All you need to do is casually side step the attacks and you’re set. Reality Warping and such is never one of the better ways to fight and each character will quickly see their limit though. That’s just how it’s got to be.

        As for Darkseid, he can’t keep up with Isshiki’s combat speed so he gets cleared in this fight

  26. Dude infinity can only be countered if the other guy has acces to domain expansion, domain amplifications or cursed tools, or if they have infinite speed, sasuke nor naruto has any of these so they cant overwhelm infinity

    Giorno and darkseid would wipe the floor easily with isshiki, of course giorno is gonna take longer since ger’s physicall strength is prob not continent level.

    Dude the only people who can resist toon force, is by having toon force yourself to counter theirs.
    plus even if you can counter it in one point, that doe snot mean its instant win for isshiki, popeye has survived star level attacks and never even bled.
    toon force is strong, because it just makes the user strong, fast, immune to everything, whatever bullshit they think of. And just cause your faster, agian does not fucking mean you automatically win.
    and you dont just side step any of popeye’s attacks, popeye just does bullshit you cant fuckign imagine, man is prob gonna kill isshiki in the weirdest way possible.

    If you can use reality warping, time manipulating and space manipulating powers as your very few abilities, its hard to argue a win for your other guy

    • You can still overwhelm it with pure power like what Toji did. That guy has no cursed energy or abilities but managed to pull it off. I’m not gonna say it’ll be easy but it can be done. Sasuke and Naruto are both considerably stronger than Toji after all.

      Giorno isn’t doing much of anything here because he’s too weak. As for Darkseid, we’ll we’ve been debating this for a while now but it’s clear that Isshiki has the better physical stats in just about every area.

      Now for Toon Force, I’m still not buying it. Not saying it’s a bad technique or anything but it’s not touching any of the real characters. Physical power and hax are just so much better and more effective that it’s not even funny.

      See, I would disagree with the closing statement too. I’ve never found reality warping, time/space manipulation to be all that effective. These are fun abilities but not exactly the top tier ones on the block. Give me some strength, speed, and healing regeneration any day. Now those are 3 powers I’d like to have

      • toji had the inverted spear of heaven, like i said its a cursed tool that can negate the limitless, thats how he was able to do it. since naruto nor sasuke posses it, they cant bypass it

        Giorno’s rtz means isshiki can never touch him
        Second of all you never proved just how strong isshiki’s physical capabilities are.

        Toon force completely ignores how physically powerful or how strong your hax are. because the user using toon force can negate it anyway even if it makes no sense. hell with toon force, popeye can bypass rtz.

        alien x with reality and time warping abilities means he can travel back in time, freeze time, create clone s of himself, be strong enough to both destroy and recreate universes, completely erase people from existence.

        Want strength and speed feats?
        alright well how about when alien x punched a planet to bits, and thats just its casual days.
        with speed, it can too move faster then light meanign it matches isshiki’s
        durability? ok well how about the time he survived a fucking universe being erased and hell did not even feel shit, hell he never even realized it was happening.

        and hell the dude can reverse time anyway if things go wrong.

        isshiki is not even close to touching this thing.

      • I forgot about those spears. Okay fair enough but what makes you think that Naruto and Sasuke couldn’t just punch through it? They’re some of the strongest characters we’ve seen in the entire verse so if anybody could do it, it would be those two.

        Giorno’s RTZ only delays the inevitable. It’s why I have been saying that Sasuke would beat him in my other post. Check out the comments here and you’ll probably agree

        As for Toon Force, is still has its limits. It can win if the other wants a cheesy battle with a comedic ending but in a serious confrontation, it is doomed right from the jump. A character can just punch through or land other big blows. That’s why a character like Popeye won’t be doing much here. Alien X at least has some combat so that helps. He does better than Popeye but again he is out of his league against Isshiki. Isshiki’s feats are simply better across the board.

        Reversing time is more of a cop-out that delays the inevitable. No matter how much he does it, Isshiki would still win in the end. It’s why I say you’ve still gotta go with the feats in the end. Alien X punching a whole planet out is insanely impressive but it’s nothing Isshiki hasn’t had to contend with before. He’s still way too slow to even land a hit on Isshiki which holds him back. At least in combat

  27. What makes me think naruto and sasuke cant punch through it?
    simple, to bypass infinity with pure speed, you need to be able to move at infinite speeds
    naruto and sasuke move faster then light, not infinite speed.

    as for giorno we talked about that shit in the same debate over and over and im not doing your crappy bullshit of giorno will run out of juice shit or rtz is just delaying the inevitable shit.

    And dude what makes you think toon force wont work in a serious confrontation?
    it works when popeye or whatever cartoon character wants it too.

    And as for the feats of alien x, the feats i mentioned are what we just see in the show, its stated its far more stronger.

    alien x has proved it can punch a planet to bits, while isshiki has not shown a continent sized attack nor planet destroying one yet.

    reversing time can help because if alien x makes a mistake he can reverse time and continue the assault. plus the dude can just erase people form existence anyway so why even bother.

    • You could make a good case for FTL speed being the same as infinite speed since the latter can’t exist by definition. So in a way there then Naruto and Sasuke shouldn’t have any issues here. They can just blow past every opponent with ease and show why they are the top two.

      As for Giorno, yeah he’s gonna run out of juice but you’re right that we’ve went over this a whole lot already. Definitely a classic.

      Toon Force only works in comedic settings which is why nobody takes it seriously. In combat it’s not going to help at all and the character will just be very disappointed.

      Alien X is strong but he doesn’t have the combat speed that Isshiki has. As for erasing people from existence, that stuff never works if you have a good amount of will power. It’s why physical feats are the king

      • FTL speed is not the same as infinite speed, infinite speed is legit in its name, infinite speed, cannot be calculated. but FTL speed can be calculated. naruto and sasuke cant just blow through gojo’s infinity cause there not fast enough too, if they had a cursed weapon or their own domain expansion yes they can, but keep in mind gojo too can just finish the fight with his own domain expansion.

        And no once agian you have not prooved that rtz runs off of some power so no that does not work.

        Toon force can and always will work wherever the character goes. in combat it does work. because popeye has used toon force in battle before. hell he even called out to the audiance watching him to give him a can of spinach, or when he was losing a fight, he threatened the writers of the show to make him win. And in case your wondering, he was losing a fight cause he was fighting someone who also could 4th wall break and use toon force. With toon force, the amount of shit you can do is crazy, it defies just about everything.

        And dude, alien x has destroyed a planet during combat speed, ever watched any ben 10 in your fucking life? in fact the dude just blitz’s staright through a planet when fighting someone. Physical feats cannot always win a fight. and no, isshiki cannot use his willpower to resist erasing, cause for one, Theres no proof of isshiki doing so, and too, how do you know if isshiki posses the will power necessary.

      • Right but what I’m saying is that infinite speed doesn’t exist so you may as well just say FTL. They’re pretty much the same thing at that point. As for Gojo’s domain expansion, I won’t count it out per say but it’s not an auto win button. You still have to have a whole lot of power and speed to deal with these kind of guys.

        For RTZ, whether he runs out of juice or not, all it does is delay the inevitable. It’s not a technique that will ever let you take the win and that’s why it’s not super helpful in this kind of fight.

        Toon Force is like reality warping. Both of them are some of the absolute worst abilities that you could ever have. They won’t help you when the chips are down and in fact you could make a good case for them actually holding you back instead. You want physical feats as soon as possible over stuff like that. Trust me on this one, it’s really for the best.

        I’ve seen a few Ben 10 clips in my day but that’s about it. Now the planet feat is pretty cool but he would have to try and hit Isshiki to make use of that. Isshiki has a lot of willpower, he didn’t crumble before the pure legacy and stature of Naruto and Sasuke. In fact, he was able to muster up his confidence and even defeat them. That shows what kind of a man he is.

  28. Right but im saying is that its a fictional world where the writers can make shit that does not happen in the real world come true. Like hell can you or hell anyone in the real world manipulate cursed energy, or hell manipulate laws and physics? did not think so, but in several fictional worlds, characters there can because of the writers choice, writers of a story are not bounded by any limits even if they dont obey laws and physics like in the real world. all gojo needs is to look at naruto and sasuke and he catches them in domain expansion.

    Im not gonna keep arguing with rtz cause your stupid and i get it, some people just have trouble accepting that their favorite characters lose to a character they know nothing about. so they try to find ways to make them win in their head and make up nerfs or use real world laws to prove it wrong even though its a fictional world

    Toon force is not just reality warping, its legit everything warping and manipulating. It defy’s legit almost everything. laws and physics, time and space, abilities, and the whole story itself. Everything. Reality warping is something REALLY useful to have in a battle, some reality warpers can nullify attacks. others can bend time and space to their will. some can just completely erase the person out of existence. now im not saying if your a reality warper you have all these abilites and you automatically win, what im saying is, Its not useless in battle. In fact its really useful. What good are your physicall feats if the opponent can just erase you from existence, or just bend time and space at will, throw you across the room with telekinesis, or nullify the attack all together. Most of the time, physical feats would mostly always lose to reality warpers.
    and if your still skeptical of popeye winning,
    The dude destroyed a star with a punch.
    How did he do it exactly? simple, complete cartoon bullshit, toon force.

    IF you have seen only a few ben 10 clips then clearly you did not do any research into his powers.
    And like i said, alien x is FTL speed, meaning it matches isshiki. besides just cause your faster does not mean you will never get hit.
    And dude while beating both naruto and sasuke is impressive, obito, madara and kaguya did the same, and naruto and sasuke needed the whole 5 nations along with them. hell alien x would destroy the two of them anyway. hell alien x could blink people out of existence if he wanted too

    • I’m picking up what you’re throwing down but it’s a bit different. Sure, there are cool special abilities out there that can take you to the next level. I wouldn’t deny that but at the same time I would still say that nothing is truly infinite. Things can get really fast and really strong but never infinite. Now my question is, what can convince you that infinity is a concept that can’t happen? You can approach it but that’s the closest you can get. It’s not a bad thing either tbh, it’s just a ceiling of sorts.

      Gojo needs to be careful because if he peers into Sasuke’s eyes then he will be trapped in an eternal genjutsu of his own. That would be game over right off the jump for him. No way he’s breaking out of the Sharingan and Naruto is heavily resistant to any kind of tricks like that. It’s why my money would be on Naruto and Sasuke all the way. The ultimate tag team! These are the guys you want on your corner.

      RTZ just doesn’t have the power. It’s like trying to compare McDonalds to Domino’s pizza. It’s just not happening even if the comparison would be very interesting to watch.

      Well for Ben 10, I still read up on the feats. I always do my research but I just haven’t really watched the show yet. I’ve heard that it’s pretty fun so one day I’ll probably check it out but that day hasn’t happened yet. Alien X would need to be able to react to Isshiki’s blows and that would be difficult. Man’s was even dodging both Naruto and Sasuke at the same time which is insane! Nobody’s getting blinked out of existence because their willpower is too strong. I’ve already gone over this!

      Now for the Toon Force stuff, it’s like reality warping, both aren’t good at all. I get what you’re trying to say here but it doesn’t work because I still maintain that they can’t negate anything if the user doesn’t want them too. So long as you have good willpower then no reality warping can hurt you and since I consider all characters to have good amounts of willpower then you’re doomed either way. There’s just no way to turn it into a really useful power. As far as I’m concerned, it just puts you in a bad spot right out of the gate. It’s not worth it…not worth the powers when you can just use physical abilities the whole time. Why do you think characters like Goku always tend to be the strongest?

      • What can convince me that nothing is infinite, simple, nothing can, Its a fictional world, In fiction it can ahppen if the writers choose it, if the writers or developers say that its infinite, then its infinite. even so how did you get the conclusion that if infinity does not exist then it would be referred to as FTL? like how do you know thats the case? not that theres any case cause you get pass gojo’s infinity you need to be as fast as the infinity, and the infinity is whadda yknow, infinite speed.

        For one genjutsu surprisingly wont work on gojo, while people say it would work they forget one thing, genjutsu is all about manipulating a opponents chakra flow. while using their own chakra to do so, the thing is gojo’s infinity blocks out everything that can harm him, even disruptions that may try to harm him, so no genjutsu cant work cause sasuke’s chakra cant reach gojo.

        We have gone over you thinking that willpower can solve erasing techniques but its not always like that for every character. IN fact there is no known naruto character that has done something like that before.

        and i just said alien x is FTL speed, making him equal to isshiki, and hell keep in mind thats what we see in the show. its stated that alien x is much faster

        and for the third paragraph im too lazy to explain it. Willpower cannot solve all of your problems, even so popeye with toon force has a pretty much unlimited set of willpower.
        why is goku the strongest?
        first off no he is not the strongest. there are characters out there that can beat goku.
        second goku is a character who just screams willpower, the thing is saiyans have been known for having an unlimited potential. Goku has always been known by that, someone who uses his will to push past his limit, but of course willpower cannot always win, after all even after unlocking mastered ultra instinct, goku still failed to beat jiren. even so, why compare goku to isshiki? goku is leagues above the naruto verse and could solo it. In the naruto verse, the infinite will we get from goku does not derive their, just cause goku has managed to push past his limits by sheer will does not mean isshiki can too. if isshiki did have the sheerwill power like goku he would have probobaly succeeded, through some miracle maybe he could have stopped crumbling away. but no, that did not happen, cause in the naruto world, sheer willpower cannot always win you the fight.

      • The reason I chose FTL to replace Infinite here is because he’s the next best thing. Lets say for a minute that we agree that there is no such thing as infinite speed. Then we need another term to replace that one as the highest level of speed and FTL already works perfectly for that. You can say you’re a million times FTL or something to keep on getting bigger but FTL should be the term that we use. It just makes sense and it feels good. It feels right you could say. Gojo would still be dealing with speeds he has never even contemplated before. I don’t think his barrier would stand up to it.

        For the genjutsu, I would say you have to look past the chakra and into the soul of the matter. It’s fair to say that Gojo may have enough willpower to resist it so the two of them could stalemate there but Sasuke’s genjutsu is incredibly powerful.

        Now as for the willpower part, it’s still the ultimate technique you can have. Okay let me put it this way, imagine you’re sailing on a really large boat and you drop a paddle right? What’s going to get you home faster, just waiting to be rescued or grabbing the other one and using your willpower to get through?

        I get what you mean about us not seeing this in Naruto yet but we know that everyone has willpower right when they start their journey. So it’s reasonable to say that they all have it too and can use that to resist the reality warping. That’s absolutely the way to go about it if you ask me. Just resist, fight the system!

        Goku surpasses Jiren at this point though. Right now I don’t think there are any DBZ characters who can beat him. Jiren had a lot of willpower too so we can’t discount that. Let me put it another way: it’s a circle.

        Willpower>>ToonForce/Reality Warping
        ToonForce/Reality Warping>>>Physical Feats
        Physical Feats>>>>Willpower

        It goes in an endless circle like this but that’s why ToonForce just doesn’t help in the end since everyone has willpower.

  29. Dude for one FTL speed is not the next best thing, its actually far from infinite speed. there are other terms, but even then the infinity is legit what it would be, infinity, plus this is me being generous and assuming infinity can be bypassed by speed alone. Really the only way is with a cursed weapon or a domain expansion. in which naruto nor sasuke have.
    Besides the infinity is not just some barrier, its legit eveywhere, gojo’s cursed ability just allows him to manipulate it.

    Second of all, Gojo’s will has nothing to do with him breaking out of a genjutsu, You cant always use sheer will to push past your limits, Yes it has been done before by a few charcaters but not everybody is like that, you cant assume everyone in the naruto verse has that kind of will.

    As for your sailboat example its just stupid. cause tbh both options are most likely possible, Grabbing this so called other paddle can depend on the context, for one if you had 2 paddles its likely you need both of them to actually be able to row the boat, 2, no you cant always just use sheer will and put your force into trying to get back to shore with a single paddle. not only does it not make that much sense, logically it would never work. besides if your paddle just dropped in the water just go get it. The point is, Sheer will is not the best option, in a desperate measure yes it can help. but if your saying that its some kind of weapon then its unlikely its gonna help. cause its not a weapon, its just a thought.

    • I’m picking up what you’re slamming down but at the same time, Naruto and Sasuke have shown themselves to be able to move faster than light. I don’t think it’s a stretch to say that they should be able to get in there and wreck Gojo. His Infinity abilities are strong but we’ve never seen him have to block something as strong as the Rasengan. It’s just not happening. No way no how! So lets say there’s no such thing as infinite speed, then that means you just need to be really fast to get the upper hand on Gojo and I think they can pull it off. Would it be easy? No. Would it be hype? You better believe it!

      Willpower can definitely break you out of a genjutsu. That’s the whole point of it. Willpower can beat any kind of hax ability, it’s just no good against physical ones. I think Gojo has enough willpower to pull it off.

      Honestly I liked my sailboat example. I thought of it while just walking around and figured I’d use it real quick. The context does make things even more interesting for sure but at the end of the day willpower is a construct that you need to use to make your life better. With it at your disposal, there’s nothing that you can’t accomplish! Within reason of course

      • First off you never even tried to conclude that being faster then light would be enough to get past infinity, In gojo’s universe the only things that have been able to get passed infinity is a domain expansion or a cursed weapon, so really I’m just being generous when saying pure speed is what you need to get past infinity, second of all rasengan is strong but tbh it’s just gonna be another failed attempt. The rasengan is just a ball of chakra, sure it’s deadly but none the less your typical jutsu attack, Chidori is the same as well anyway. It would not matter how strong the rasengan is cause even the strongest attacks are pointless if they don’t hit.

        Second of all willpower is not the answer to every mind or whatever based attack. You can’t always use sheer will to break out of a attack. I’m not saying it’s impossible. I’m saying that not everybody is capable of doing so. Naruto can break out of genjutsu’s cause he was trained to do so by jiraiya. Gojo with his infinity cant be effected by genjutsu cause the infinity won’t let chakra get to gojo, meaning you can’t use your chakra to manipulate the senses of gojo. Does willpower exist? Yes,can it be used? Yes, does it mean you win? No. Does it work with everyone? No.

      • FTL can get past infinity because nothing is truly infinite. It’s all just a numbers game and being FTL can pull it off. Think of Infinity as an invisible barrier of sorts. It’s hard to punch through it but not impossible. So that’s all the Chidori or Rasengan would need to do, have enough power to just punch through. If they can do that then the match is as good as won.

        My stance on Willpower is that anyone can use it to overcome any hax. However it’s not enough to stop physical techniques which is why you always want to have those at the ready just in case

  30. I legit just said gojo’s infinity may not be able to be bypassed by pure speed cause remmeber. Gojo’s infinity is all about slowing down an opponent’s speed the closer they get to gojo. It gets to the point where the opponent eventually just stops. So a rasengan nor Chidori is gonna be able to hit gojo. It does not matter how strong powerful Chidori ot rasengan are. There only deadly if they hit you. With gojo’s infinity. That stops it from hitting him.

    Will power cannot always overpower pure hax. That’s why there called hax, there legit broken. Hella strong. Show me proof of isshiki actually resisting things like pure erasure from existence.

    Do you honestly think darkseid is gonna go down from a bunch of punches from some white freak? Darkseid is not just strong based on pure abilities and hax. He too is also immensely strong. And he is too immensely durable, as he is capable of surviving universal attacks. Hell he can react down to nanoseconds which may I remind you is Way faster then what isshiki had to deal with. And as for strength the dude has knocked around some of the strongest physical attackers in all of dc

    • Right, but if your speed is fast enough then you should be able to punch through. At the end of the day it’s a straight fight between pure speed and his slow down effect. So if you’re fast enough then you should be able to get through. As for determining if someone is fast enough, it’s tough since JJK doesn’t have too many super fast characters. It’s definitely possible though so we have to keep that in mind.

      Will power is above hax. That’s just how it is in the circle of elements. Isshiki hasn’t had to resist anything like that because he hasn’t fought anyone with hax like erasure.

      As for Darkseid, yeah, Isshiki’s punches would send him into oblivion real quick. He’s just on a completely different level at this point. Darkseid has a hard time keeping up with Superman and Isshiki is leagues faster. Now, I don’t want to downplay Darkseid so lets keep this in perspective. Darkseid is a powerful fighter but he’s just not ready for Isshiki and that guy’s crazy speed. He would be zipping around the known universe over and over again in an instant.

      • No cause like I said, the infinity eventually just stops the opponent before reaching gojo. Just cause it’s possible in one universe does not mean it’s possible in another one, even so that does not mean that a specific character is capable of bypassing it. It depends on their abilities, but for you you think it’s just pure stats and feats, who in the naruto verse can bypass gojo’s infinity? Potentially obito, cause he could theoretically use kamui to warp next to gojo and pull him into the kamui dimension. Theoretically.

        Second of all no willpower is not always above pure hax. And you just proved my point there. Isshiki never fought someone who has had based powers. How would he know how to resist erasure attacks if he never had to fight someone who did.

        Another thing is that darkseid did not just beat superman. He wiped the floor with every justice leauge member on his own. And no isshiki is not faster then superman. Let me know when isshiki has reacted down to nanoseconds

      • There is no such thing as true infinity though. So that means it just slows things a lot but you should be able to break through it with pure speed and or power. That’s something these guys should be able to do thanks to their absolutely insane physical abilities. What can Gojo try to do to stop them? Any action he makes will just be reversed and thrown back at him by these guys.

        For willpower it’s not like you have to understand what is happening in order to stop it. You just have to will it hard enough that you want to stay in one piece and you will. That’s why Isshiki would be able to do this even without any formal training. It’s because he is the ultimate action character. Well, that’s a little too much praise but basically he should be able to pull it off.

        Superman’s beaten Darkseid many times though. He cleaned the guy’s clock back in the superman animated series. Great episode as well but it showed how Superman’s speed will always triumph over Darkseid’s raw strength. It’s what I’ve been trying to tell people for years. Superman is fast but Isshiki wouldn’t be getting hit by guys like Batman or the tripods

  31. Dude the infinity in the jujutsu kaisen universe is like the force, its everywhere, and gojo’s ability allows him to use infinity as a weapon, you missed the part where i said the infinity would just stop the opponent from hitting gojo entirely, meaning no speed cannot help you here.
    what can gojo do? well for one trap naruto and sasuke in his domain expansion. once that happens naruto and sasuke will be unable to move, allowing gojo to do anything he likes to them.
    2, hollow purple is a instant kill as its able to just erase everything in its path.
    3, six eyes, while not much is known its been able to instantly kill people with just one look and its stated that gojo perceives the world in terms of mass speed and energy

    isshiki being able to pull off enough will to overcome erasure? when has he done that? any proof? dont think so,
    Just because you wanna stay alive so badly does not mean you will, sheer will alone wont always be enough, you need skill, expirence, and power to ensure victory upon your opponent. will power is mostly used cause of a story perspective, not in an actual debate itself, unless its 100% a key factor, like green lantern, his power is legit based off his will power.

    once agian you have not proven that isshiki can even react down to nano seconds or even travel to teh end of existence in 5 seconds so i dotn believe you for a second when you say isshiki is faster

    • I’d say the ability still has its limits though. If you attack with enough speed then the ability won’t be able to stop you. It may be called infinity but it’s still not infinite by nature because nothing is infinite. So just give Isshiki or Naruto enough time and Gojo will be going down. As for the domain expansion, it only worked because Jogo couldn’t comprehend the cosmos. With how much Naruto has been through I don’t think that would be a problem for him. He would just give one of those speeches with the emotional music and get on through without a scratch. He would probably just feel a little sad getting that much info.

      Hollow Purple is strong but it’s basically just a bijuu bomb that Naruto can counter. 6 Eyes won’t be doing much against Naruto, he’s resistant to all visual abilities.

      Now for Isshiki, it’s not something unique to him. Any character can resist erasure as long as they try hard enough. So long as they do that then everything will turn out okay. Willpower is incredibly useful for everything. I even have it listed in the blog battle rules about how erasure doesn’t really help for that reason.

      Isshiki was able to react to both Naruto and Sasuke which is still a much better feat than the nano seconds right out of the jump. Even Sasuke’s instant teleportation doesn’t faze him.

      • Your telling me someone can speed through an invisible force, that SLOWS YOU DOWN, its called the infinity cause it exits everywhere. and i already said its fiction so infinity and infinite things can exist.

        Naruto nor sasuke cannot talk no jutsu out of gojo’s domain expansion, Naruto has been through alot but NEVER had to deal with something like comprehending every living thing and knowing everything.

        isshiki’s willpower once agian cannot help him. i cant believe your able to type these and think to yourself that this is perfectly logical.
        if isshiki’s will was that big and deadly it would at least have a factor in his story. but no it never did.

        naruto and sasuke had to be in their final forms to even be capable of moving or reacting light speed. reacting down to nanosecond targets are far faster, even so darkseid took 5 seconds to reach the end of existence. its impressive cause that means darkseid in that time had to react to not hitting planets, meteors or whateevr shit he might bump into. thats why its impressive, think how flash runs through a city FTL while being able to dodge every building, car, sign, person and object. thats why i say its more impressive then isshiki beating naruto and sasuke in terms of speed.

      • Well yeah, that’s why speed is always the best. As long as you move fast enough then you can speed past any anti-speed force that is trying to slow you down. You’re going to need to trust me on this, speed will always win out the battle in the end! That’s what I be talking about over here and even in fiction there is no infinity.

        Talk no jutsu can work through a lot. Naruto would be able to comprehend the universe because he knows what true pain and sadness is. He won’t look away or back down like Jogo. As for Sasuke, he would be able to just use his sharingan to get through.

        I’d say Isshiki’s willpower was a big deal though. It’s why he was able to get back up and keep fighting even after seeing Baryon mode’s true power. Most other villains would have just ran off at that point. I think it shows exactly what kind of a man he is.

        For Darkseid I’d think of it more like teleportation. Darkseid isn’t actually weaving in and out like a basketball player going to the hoop. He just appeared at the end of the universe and that’s why I wouldn’t consider it quite as impressive as it sounds. Isshiki’s fight is still more impressive because they’re actually going at it physically. You see all of the punches and kicks going between the characters and it’s not something that could be easily matched. We haven’t seen Darkseid have to go toe to toe with fighters as fast as these two before.

  32. When you keep saying infinity does not exist even when it does and you still dont get my point, the infinity is like a invisible force that seperates gojo and objects living things. when things get closer to gojo they slow down to the point of almost stopping. the closer you are to gojo the slower you get. This would mean being fast enough wont help. how the hell can i trust you when you refer to greninja’s battle bond form as a mega evolution? you cant be trusted with debating at all.

    Talk no jutsu is not an actual ability or trait that helps naruto in battle. Just cause he went through a sad and painful life does not mean he has the knowledge or wisdom of the entire universe, nor be able to comprehend it. sasuke cant use his sharingan to escape gojo’s domain, cause to counter a domain expansion you need a domain expansion yourself. its not a genjutsu that tricks sasuke’s mind, gojo’s domain legit stops people from moving.

    isshiki only survived baryon mode cause of its very low energy. its like the 8th gate in a way. and im pretty sure you dotn need superhuman will to just keep fighting baryon mode. im pretty sure anyone would be able to at least still try to fight naruto with baryon mode.

    something i forgot to mention earlier was that hollow purple and the bijuu bomb are completely different. hollow purple is like a moving black hole that sucks and erases everything in its path, whereas the bijuu bomb is yeah one hell of a attack but can still be touched physically, killer bee proved this. sure in terms of destructive capability, the bijuu bomb takes it, but hollow purple can legit be a one shot move if you dont dodge it.

    and no darkseid did not teleport to the end of existence, he flew there. you think its teleportation but just cause you think does not mean its 100% true. tHe punches and kicks goign between the charcaters may look cool, but hell there not even moving faster then sound. in short burst yeah but most of the time but not even faster then sound. besides darkseid has taken on the flash before. and do i really have to explain as to why this means darkseid is faster?

    • You gotta trust me man, I’ve just been trying to prove to the world that speed can overcome any hurdle. Yes, that even includes infinity and all that. The reason why I say this is because speed has always been the deciding factor for everything in life. You just have to go faster than anything in your way, whether it’s a barrier or an attack.

      Isshiki survived because he had the guts to stay in the game. Most other fighters would have ran off immediately because they were so scared. You have to trust me on this, trust me completely and without hesitation!

      Same thing still with the two abilities. You can absolutely touch Hollow Purple like the Bijuu bomb if you are strong enough but nobody in JJK was ready for that yet. At the end of the day they’re both just classic energy balls.

      I remember when Superman wrecked Darkseid to the end of the universe

      Now as for the Flash, he’s fast but he’s lost to Batman and Catwoman in the past. That’s still not as good as fighting Naruto and Sasuke who never let their guard down and fight with 120% at all times. You can’t stop them or make them surrender, they just keep on coming over and over again. It’s why they are known as the dynamic duo, the masters of faster. Etc

      • Physical feats cannot always win in the end, no matter how strong or fast you are they do not always win. No you cannot speed through a force that slows you down. No you cannot touch hollow purple. you cannot be just that strong to the point where you can touch something that erases anything in its path. naruto and sasuke did not train so hard to the point where they defied laws and logic.

        Im pretty sure any known character from any anime would not just turn and run the other way. ichigo? no he would destroy baryon mode naruto. luffy? he would prob have to go to gear 5 to even match him. goku? he would want to fight naruto more then ever. gon? he would still wanna fight. not to mention all the hundreds of characters who would still fight. batman,superman,green lantern, they would all still fight. im not hesitating to say this. hell its even worse for naruto if they find out it only last 30 minutes on average.
        legit any character i know would still want to fight no matter what happens. if anything ichigo and his forms look more intimidating then baryon mode naruto.

        superman defeated darkseid cause yes he is superman, i already explained how powerful superman is, besides superman only defeated darkseids avatar, not darkseids true form.

        for your flash statement, the 3 flashes were being controlled by poison ivy. she did not know how to use the flashes abilities properly therfore she ended up failing.

        of course there are many dumb statements to this,
        first off poison ivy has never been able to use full mind control
        and two teh realistic impact would send cat woman flying instead of what happend.

        naruto and sasuke are a great duo but stopping something thats a universal as well as multiversal threat, is definitely more then what they could handle. they barely managed to stop someone who is prob continent or moon level

      • Naruto and Sasuke is one of the greatest tag teams in all of media. They took out guys like Madara and Kaguya and made it look easy! I don’t think even a universal threat would be a match for them.

        I know they retconned Superman’s wins to all be against avatars but a win’s still a win. As for the Flash, well they still got rocked and that’s because they aren’t very balanced fighters.

        You’re choosing a lot of SJ’s finest fighters although Luffy would get wrecked even in G5. I’m saying if you grab someone like Batman, Superman, Hulk, etc. They wouldn’t even dream of fighting Baryon Naruto because that’s just traumatizing. His sheer power and speed was like something out of DBZ and then he can also drain your life force. No you don’t want to have to fight against someone like that. He would put everyone into deep fear.

        For deep purple, it’s the same concept as Hakai. It destroys if you aren’t strong enough but if you are then you would just block the blow easy peasy. It’s exactly what the characters can do. Same with speeding past the infinity ability. As long as you surpass your limits and go all in then you should be okay

  33. While yes naruto and sasuke are a great duo there not the strongest duo in all of media.
    realistically they would have lost to madara and kaguya.
    madara with rinnesharingan was most likely stronger then the two of them
    and kaguya, they had to seal kaguya away not kill her, besides they needed the help of kakashi sakura and obito to stay alive.

    Darkseid losing to superman is not a good statement for why he wins this match.
    If the flash was under mind control then its no shit he would be nerfed.

    Batman hulk and superman would not cower in fear agiants baryon mode naruto,
    The hulk would just charge in agian to attack naruto.
    superman would probably just get annoyed and go in for an attack
    and batman would still fight on and prob think of a plan to take him down. batman is the same guy who kicked the angel of wrath in the face and then proceed to tell him to get out of his city. I dont think the three characters you mentioned are gonna back down in fear.

    Compaeing hollow purple to hakai is completely stupid, like okay they erase things, but hollow purple is using both pull and push energy to create its black hoel like properties to erase stuff, while hakai is just pure erasure. you cant compare one technique to another technique that exists in a different universe.
    You cant always surpass your limits when you need to either.

    • I agree, the strongest duo in all of media would be Bass and Megaman but these guys are still strong. In their current forms they would be washing Madara and Kaguya really quick. Their skills have only continued to improve to the point where now they are bonafide threats to the entire universe! Nobody is taking them down easily…nobody!

      I think it’s still worth noting because Superman can beat Darkseid and then everyone has beaten Superman at some point.

      Hulk definitely would, remember when he got scared of Thanos because he got roughed up a bit? Well, it would be that X100 with how Naruto would be beating him up. Batman may not be super scared but he would back down because he knows his limits. Superman would try to fight but get wrecked right away and would then back down. Deep down they know that they aren’t ready for this smoke.

      Hakai and Hollow Purple are basically the same thing. They both erase things but can’t erase if something or someone is too strong. That’s why it wouldn’t work in this case because pure power trumps all.

      • No, megaman and bass are not the strongest duo out there. there are many more duo’s out there that surpass megaman and bass. adult naruto and adult sasuke would still get wiped by madara with his 10 tails rinnesharingan. Sure when they gained six paths powers naruto and sasuke were holding their ground but that was because madara had to learn their new abilitys first. plus madara just got back from a fight with 8 gates guy. kaguya is no different. Naruto and sasuke would be forced to seal kaguya away instead of kill her. and even so i dont think they have access to six paths chibaku tensei anymore.

        Superman has lost cause either
        1, your reffering to the cinematic and cartoon superman which are much weaker then their comic book counter part
        2 the enemy had kryptonite on hand
        3 there just that crazy strong

        There are many theories as to why hulk refused to show up in infinity war, But most of them say cause he did not want to fight for bruce anymore.
        Even so the mad titan has survived star level attacks in which no naruto character has survived.
        Even still thats mcu hulk and not comic book hulk, comic book hulk is WAY more fearless then mcu hulk. Batman would probably retreat, But not because of fear, but because so that he can find a way to beat him, batman has always been known to be prepared, of course when it comes to it, he would go full throttle and charge forward if theirs not an option, but he would probably come back to the fight agian. hell if anything retreating is the best option, cause baryon mode cost the life of kurama, so by batman retreating, he gets time to prepere for the next fight and naruto loses kurama in the process.
        As for superman no, superman would wipe the floor with naruto. if naruto cannot react down to nano seconds nor destroy solar systems with just a sneeze, i dont think he can touch superman, especially since with his limited time he has with baryon mode.

        Hollow purple and hakai are not the same in terms of how its used. Why do you keep ignoring what i say? Just cause hakai can be resisted with sheer will and strength does not mean hollow purple would be the same.

      • You’re either underestimating Megaman, Bass, or both. Remember that Bass is the strongest being in all of media and it’s not even close:

        Now as for Naruto and Sasuke, remember that they have grown even stronger so I’m not sure that they would lose to Madara right now. There is a lot of debate on if they were actually stronger, stayed the same, or got weaker. To me it would make sense that they only got stronger but it definitely is hard to say.

        For Hulk, he was just scared plain and simple. He got spanked by Thanos and didn’t want any of that smoke. That’s what would have happened here after he got wrecked too.

        Cmon, how can you say Superman stands a chance against Naruto? Naruto would just speedblitz him and land massive Rasengans all the time. Baryon Mode scales above Isshiki which scales above Naruto & Sasuke which scales above Madara which scales above Naruto who scales above Sasuke who scales above Superman. You can’t put Baryon against Superman, it just wouldn’t be fair. Trust me on this one, it would be a one sided beat down right from the jump.

        I’m not ignoring what you’re saying, I’m trying to correct you here. They are basically the same exact technique. We know that they work the same until proven differently and proving that is really tough. That’s all I’m saying here. We know what they’ve got and how they work. We don’t have to throw the rules out just because it’s a different series.

        As for Superman losing, he’s los tin every version. Comics, shows, movies, etc. He’s lost in all of them and it’s pretty much unavoidable when you’ve been around the block as long as he has but it still needs to be mentioned because it’s important. For all of his impressive abilities, at the end of the day he’s still just a strong dude while Naruto and Sasuke approach the realm of the gods and even surpass them

  34. Bass and megaman are not the strongest in all of media, there are legit so many people in that link you sent me that are trying to tell you how bullshit your claims are, and there right.

    As for naruto and sasuke, they might have grown alot stronger, but definetly not enough to surpass juubi madara with rinnesharingan.

    Hulk being scared of thanos is a theory but definitely a understatement. if he was scared of thanos he would not want to fight thanos. but instead throughout the movie he refuses to fight anyone. so no i dont think hulk being scared of thanos is that much of a valid option, Besides im talking about comic book hulk and not mcu hulk, Can you read what i said earlier?

    Superman scales above the entire naruto series, he is a man with zero limits. even in his worst he wont be put down forever. he has survived far worse then a rasengan. supernova’s universal destruction, armageddon. and yet you say some small ass ball is gonna beat him?
    Like here is other people saying what im trying to say

    All these people here know what superman is capable of.
    Hell they mentioned attoseconds. which are way faster then nanoseconds that i mentioned.

    Hollow purple and hakai are not the same technique.
    Sure they do something similar like erasing things but thats it. hakai requires the use of god ki while hollow purple requires the use of infinity.
    Combining the red techniques, push force
    and the blue technique, pull force
    you get hollowpurple, a moving blackhole.
    with hakai, it just erases the person from existence. and can be used in many quantities. like when it erased a whole island.

    These two techniques are completely different, end of discussion on that.

    Just cause superman has lost does not make that a valid point to why he would lose to naruto. besides superman does not just surpass gods, he becomes them.

    • We can agree to disagree on Hollow Purple but at the end of the day you can just punch it away or muscle through it if you’re strong enough. It’s all about leveraging your power correctly. Do that and you will really be all set for action!

      Superman does lose a lot but I agree that he’s still really strong. Just not as strong as Naruto. Naruto looks better in terms of speed and power in combat. Pull up any high budget fight for Naruto and then a big Superman battle. It’s not even close with their stats.

      The link was interesting though, but I think they’re getting lost in the sauce for a moment there. Being faster than attoseconds and all of that is great but what good is it when the character doesn’t display that kind of speed in combat? You need combat speed in order to win fights and that’s exactly what Naruto brings to each and every fight.

      The Bass post was intense, but yeah not everyone agrees with me. Hopefully I can get them to come around sooner than later. If not that will feel like a complete defeat for me!

      Hulk was too scared to fight anybody. If you read One Punch Man, it’s similar to Darkshine. After he got wrecked he didn’t want to fight anyone else either. It just happens like that with a traumatic experience. That said, I know comic Hulk doesn’t usually get scared but at the end of the day he would still get absolutely destroyed in a fight.

      Superman could survive some Rasengans but the problem is that Naruto can just keep spamming them and there isn’t a whole lot that Superman would be able to do to avoid or block them. He would still be going down real fast and that’s the main problem here. He would be completely outgunned at all points in time.

      • First of all no your still false with your first statement its not true. superman has lost but its his feats that tower over his losses. saying superman would lose cause he lost to batman is the same as saying naruto would lose cause he was knocked out by his own daughter.

        When they say the flash can react in attoseconds is literally them saying he is reacting in attoseconds. i cant stress it enough. The flash has shown that kind of reaction time over and over throughout fights.

        Comic book hulk would not get destroyed in a fight agiants naruto, if anything hulk annihilates naruto by a long shot. and just cause one character in a different universe does not wnat to fight cause of a traumatic experience does not mean characters from other universes would too.

        I dont see how a bunch of rasengans would match the power of a single supernova, or hell 5 supernova’s and a red sun. naruto has never dished out any amount of power liek that.

      • Yeah but those losses are just too frequent. Keep in mind that I’m a big Superman fan myself but the guy is called Mr. Ls for a good reason. It’s probably unavoidable for a character who’s been appearing for decades like Superman but we’ve just gotta keep it real here. It just be like that sometimes while Naruto was at least holding back with his daughter. What’s Superman’s excuse for getting one shot by the Tripod?

        Flash has great reaction times but at the same time everyone is always tagging him. I think it’s safe to say that in combat his reaction times are significantly reduced from that.

        As for comic book Hulk, he’s lost to Spiderman and Batman in the past. He’s strong but just way oo slow o do much of anything here. He would get absolutely devastated by Naruto in a real fight. Trust me when I say that it would not even be close. Naruto is just in a whole different league as far as the skills go.

        The Rasengans add up. Additionally you have to factor in the internal damage and how they pretty much disintegrate you from the inside out. There’s just no defense against them and that’s probably the most dangerous part about them.

  35. Superman losses are not that frequent, your thinking of the movies and tv show’s, to explain his losses in the comics here are the reasons

    A, superman had to either protect and save people during the fight while keeping his power to a minimum as to not kill or cause more damage to the city
    B, the enemy uses kryptonite which is superman’s weakness
    C, the enemy was just that powerful
    d, the fight happend at night, cause remember, supermans powers draw off of solar energy, so at night where the sun dont shine, he is vulnerable.

    Naruto was not trying to hold back, he was trying to defend boruto from being attacked. hell himiwari even knocked out kurama in the process.

    His excuse for getting tapped by the tripods

    reasons A and C and d are the reasons.
    Hell in the end he did win anyway so why does it matter?

    Explain to me as to why his reaction time would be different in battles. his reaction time feats have been shown DURING battle. ever read the flash comics?

    As for hulk i was not reffering to regular comic book hulk, im reffering to world breaker hulk obviously, like why tf would i do normal hulk. besides as for batman, he has already fought similar brute’s before and has won, hulk would be no different.

    Superman has survived being hit from the inside out before. besides saying the rasengans would add up to a single supernova is stupid, there is no way naruto’s rasengans could add up to the power of a single supernova. It would take BILLIONS of rasengan’s and even then superman tanked 5 supernova’s and was fine, so hell, WAY MORE. plus the sun does heal superman anyway.

    • All right, lets talk about my man Superman. Okay so for the Tripods it’s true that it was at night but he still got absolutely dominated. You wouldn’t see that happen to Isshiki. He would have just been dominating all around and spamming his high powered blows. He doesn’t have any weaknesses and that’s massive in a fight because a villain will exploit your weakness in an instant without mercy. That’s really the big deal here. Superman would be getting tossed around the planet so he would be in the night too.

      Nah Naruto was in comic relief mode. He wasn’t actually trying or he could have hurt Himawari by mistake. He doesn’t want that so he let her absolutely crush him in that battle. Otherwise he would have taken the win pretty easily.

      As for reaction time speeds, it’s always different for combat and movement. That’s because the level of concentration is so different. Superman’s reaction times aren’t bad but he takes a lot of punches to the face that Isshiki would have dodged.

      As for the Hulk, Worldbreaker Hulk is pretty strong and all but he’s not ultimately fast or anything. Isshiki would still be fighting rings around him all the time.

      As for the Rasengans, he’s not ready for this level of direct attack. A supernova is a widespread hit so it’s not quite so direct while a Rasengan hits you right to the core. Superman’s not getting up from a few hits like that especially if Naruto punches him into a dark corner of the planet

      • Like i said, superman was getting hurt cause of
        No sun
        and people to keep safe therfore, being forced to keep his powers at a minimum.
        If he wanted to he could easily destroy them and thats kinda what he did once most people were away from the battle.
        Hell superman could just grab isshiki and bring him to the sun and just throw him in their. Boom goodbye isshiki, but of course ya know i wont say that as a win, he could send isshiki flying with a punch. after all the dude can breathe so hard he can create hurricanes.
        How the hell would naruto blocking an attack hurt himiwari, its a defensive technique not an attacking one. Hell naruto’s durability should be even greater as an adult but yet gets one tapped by himiwari, theres no such thing as comic releif mode by your stupid logic?
        Besides what about every single time naruto gets pummuled by sakura, or what about that time with the sword. The dude gets stabbed and is easily weakened.

        Supermans reaction times are far better then isshiki’s and its not like isshiki has dodged everything naruto and sasuke had.

        The hulk once agian caught silver surfer mid flight, plus the dude has a regeneration thats crazy shit, man could have his head blown off and still be fine.

        A supernova is capable of disintegrating earth as well as all other planets. where as a fucking robot managed to survive one of naruto’s big ass rasengans while he was in so6p kurama chakra mode.

      • No sun is big but Superman’s still mostly at full power even without it. So it’s still pretty crazy that he was getting wrecked like that. As for grabbing Isshiki, that guy is too fast for any of those tricks. Superman would just be down and out here because he can’t hope to catch Isshiki. At the end of the day he would be unable to make up any ground. Isshiki is just too fast and strong at this point.

        Naruto was in comic relief mode though so it’s not like he was really trying. Naruto was ready to accept the L there just to diffuse the situation. It’s why I call him one of the GOATs out there. He does whatever he needs to in order to keep things calm. There aren’t a lot of main characters who would be able to do that. It’s why Naruto is just so special here.

        It doesn’t really work as an anti feat though. He also lets Sakura mess with him a lot because he’s not going to fight back. It’s not the same as Superman actually losing all the time though. As for reaction times, I would still give Isshiki the edge here. That guy was taking on Naruto and Sasuke. That’s an absolutely insane feat no matter how you slice it. I have big doubts on Superman being able to pull that off.

        Silver Surfer went way too close though. He should have kept his distance and spammed the energy blasts. That would have been the best way to do this without a doubt. Would have given him a true edge if you ask me. As for the Supernova, keep in mind that it’s still an area attack while the Rasengan is direct. That’s the attack you want to dodge

  36. Superman in situations where its dark out and is in a public place like a city is why he keeps getting hurt. Remember he cant go full murder mode in a city, if he does then he is gonna end up killing people and destroying buildings,like would naruto wanna bring out his kurama avatar in the leaf village before dropping a tailed beast bomb to kill the opponent, of course not, he has something to protect, like with the battle with delta, naruto had to defend himiwari and boruto from delta, hell it went so far where kawaki had to defend naruto from an attack from delta. Thats why superman keeps getting so called “beaten easily”, but of course you choose to ignore that and think of a different way naruto could win.

    Naruto in comic releif mode? Your making it seem liek its this new form naruto has, even if naruto wasnot trying to hurt himiwari, then explain how himiwari knocked out both naruto and kurama at the same time.
    Not to mention naruto getting owned by a sword
    Him struggling to catch a little kid despite being in kurama chakra mode.
    and hell sasuke himself as well was struggling agiants shin aka budget akatsuki member.

    My man legit got knocked out by sakura several times before. And explain to me how do you hold back on durability? Durability is constant. you cant hold back on durability, on strength you can, on speed you can, but durability? Your durability stays the same.
    The way you see superman losing is wrong, cause for the last time its the tv show superman. A completely different version of superman. A much weaker version at that. His visual fights dont matter cause the comics always end up being superior in terms of supermans actual strengths.

    You keep repeating the same thing,
    Isshiki reacted to both naruto and sasuke, you keep saying how insane it is,
    I know your just dragging out the whole danm conversation in a stupid manner while you sit in your dumbass bedroom playing smash bros ultimate with your friends.

    It doe snot matter how silver surfer should have handled the fight, We are looking at how hulk managed to grab silver surfer mid flight, Hulk being able to catch him mid flight is REALLY impressive cause silver surfer is by far one of the fastest characters in all of marvel. And i highly doubt spamming energy blasts from a distance would give silver surfer the win. Hulk has a regeneration that can heal entire limbs and holes through him. Plus the dude survived universal destruction, he is surely not going down just cause silver over there decided to spam energy blast.

    An area attack from a supernova is capable of completely destroying planets, where as naruto’s biggest rasengan cant even destroy a continent. Hell deidara’s suicide bomb did more damage then naruto’s rasengan.
    A single or hell billions of rasengans no matter how focused dont even compare to the force of a supernova, crazy how i have to explain that to someone

    • I think you’re overestimating a supernova compared to the Rasengan. Remember that by the end of the series Naruto could easily break whole planets with his Rasengan like when he injured the moon during his fight with Toneri. It’s already in a pretty good spot there so a few of those would be enough.

      Also, it is insane that Isshiki reacted to Naruto and Sasuke. These guys are world class fighters who could solo over 90% of fiction. The fact that anyone could keep up with them blows my mind. Like I was almost out of breath just thinking about it because it completely shattered my world view. If they can do that then what can’t they do? It makes you think and I have to add that it should also scare us a bit. Because if he’s that strong then there is no stopping them.

      As for Silver Surfer, that guy should have played the matchup better and here’s why that is relevant. If he didn’t get so close then Hulk wouldn’t have been able to grab him. So as long as my guys keep their distance then Hulk is still doomed. Put in enough energy blast spam and even the most durable of fighters will go down. Hulk is no exception.

      As for Superman’s losses, sounds like a lot of excuses to me imo. Think about it, Superman is the Man of Steel so shouldn’t he be absolutely crushing everyone he faces? That’s how I would have thought it was going to go at least so imagine my dismay when he just keeps on losing. Naruto had to hold back against Delta but he knew that he was going to win all the time.

      As for comic relief mode, it may as well be a new form. There’s no way Himawari could handle any of Naruto’s other modes so he was holding back to a whole new level here. He didn’t want to hurt her pride and it shows why he is a solid father. He did what he had to…no matter the cost!

      You can hold back on durability though. Picture this, you’re walking down main street when a kid exits his Chucky Cheese’s and runs towards you as he prepares a big punch. If you don’t hold back your durability, he’s going to injure his hand on your chest because you just got back from the gym and your abs are ripped. So you hold back and roll with the blow to the point where you could knock yourself out by mistake. It’s the same concept here.

      • Moon destruction does not even compare to planet level destruction. Even if we assume that, a supernova could destroy several planets at once. and superman tanked 5. By the time naruto makes it to the first supernova, the dude would probably be out of chakra.

        Naruto sasuke and isshiki would not be able to solo 90% of fiction, Stop pretending like they would. What cant they do? definetly not universal destruction, or multiversal or hell even star level.

        For the last time it does not matter how silver surfer should have played the fight. It does not matter if he could have won. What matters is taht hulk can keep up with him in a fight, hence why this version of hulk is fast as fuck.

        Delta is nowhere near superman’s level, has delta bench pressed a planet, No
        Has delta reacted in nanoseconds, No
        Has delta survived 5 supernova’s to the face, No

        If delta cant do any of these things, theres no way she is touching superman.

        Comic relief is not some new mode. making more things up now? how about i make stuff up too? It seems your ok with it anyway.
        Yeah no shit himiwari would not be able to beat naruto in a fight. But if naruto and kurama cant handle some little girl punching them and instantly being knocked out. then idk how that is more sad then superman being tossed aroudn by actual enemies.

        There is no goddamn way a kid would hurt themselves from punching someone. You might see it in the movies or tv shows but in reality its highly unlikely. Unless your abs are as hard as steel theres no way its happening, holding back on durability is not a actual thing.

      • Nonsense, have you been training your abs? Holding back durability is a big thing. It’s why they tell NFL players to move at top speeds at all time because slowing down or holding back would actually result in their getting injured instead. I know it sounds crazy but it’s just one of those things.

        As for the comic relief mode, it’s not a tangible mode like the juice that GER runs on, but it is a real concept. Put it this way, Naruto didn’t detect any danger and he was trying for a peaceful outcome so he wasn’t going to do anything. He let himself be knocked out to help Himiwari’s confidence and I dare say that it worked pretty well. It’s why Naruto is that dude.

        Superman doesn’t have the combat feats to react to Delta, let alone endure her attacks. She would be running rings around him in the fight and landing absolutely critical blows the whole time. Even with his durability Superman would go down.

        Naruto and Sasuke can definitely solo 90% of fiction. Keep in mind that 90% aren’t even planet busters so that’s an easy win and they wouldn’t be making the same mistakes as Silver Surfer and going in close. Don’t underestimate their battle experience and tactical supports! Naruto is also pretty much made of chakra so he’s not running out anytime soon. No matter how you slice it, Superman stands no chance

  37. I still can’t help but laugh at this match, even when I was the one who asked for it to be made. I mean, I’m a massive Naruto / Boruto fan, but even I know that most Naruto characters are pretty low tier compared to Marvel or DC mid or even high tier characters. Isshiki has no true counter to any of Darkseid’s abilities, and to assume otherwise is nothing short of blind ignorance and complete bias towards Naruto. Isshiki’s power caps out at around planet level, if we want to be generous with the scaling chain in his verse. Darkseid is at the level of the Specter, a very high cosmic being in the DC universe who acts on behalf of God, as the Angel of Vengeance. Bear in mind that characters such as Darkseid and the Specter both sit above normal “universal” constraints and there are almost no limits to their power. If they exist in a 5-D space, above the normal 4-D space, then only characters above 5-D space can harm / fight / injure them. Isshiki is nowhere near that level of power, and only by downplaying DC characters by claiming they have “no feats” is pure bias. Even if you hype Naruto characters to star level, that’s still far beneath Darkseid’s level.

    Just my personal thoughts on this “debate.” Well, I’d like to call it a debate, but that would require real reasoning and logic, whereas this blog seems to rely purely on bias, ignorance fallacies, and the most horrendous usage of stonewalling I’ve ever seen. Also, blind insistence on Naruto characters being stronger than any other characters in fiction is not a true or even half decent argument. A fairly high level D&D Adventurer (classes such as Wizards, Monks, or maybe even Bards or Warlocks with the right spells could do some real damage) pretty much just say “hi” to most Naruto characters and they get erased from existence. (Note that I don’t even like D&D as a franchise, but even I acknowledge the power from top tier beings in that verse).

    • I agree that the debate’s been pretty intense but I just don’t see a series like D&D being all that strong. For the most part I’d put them all as street level fighters with a heavy amount of no limit fallacies supporting them. They don’t have any kind of speed feats or impressive attacks. Naruto should be able to crush them quickly.

      Likewise, 5D beings can be at a disadvantage because you can hit them anywhere. Way I see it, being normal 3D is always the best balance in terms of feats and action. Darkseid’s taken damage and lost against Superman many times, even got shot by Batman and if we keep the scaling going then Isshiki shouldn’t have any trouble with him. I’ve never seen a DC or Marvel character look as impressive as Isshiki was against Naruto and Sasuke in the 2 v 1. That’s why I’m always so impressed with these guys. Anime characters tend to be a tier above all others

  38. I’ve seen people claim that Itachi’s Yata Mirror can block any attack from anything else in fiction, and I thought that was the worse form of hyping Naruto characters to unrealistic levels of power…. and then I saw this match. Limits exist within certain universes, as made up by the author. Context, and the situations characters face matter quite a bit, too. Superman and various DC characters take on universal and even multiversal threats commonly, and so they need sufficient levels of power to contend with them to make the story interesting. Naruto focuses mostly on continental to small county to possibly moon or planet level threats, and to assume that Naruto can beat Superman (who is commonly portrayed as about solar system level, or higher depending on the needs of the story) is absurd. I’ll use this as an example, suppose that we never, ever see Naruto get tired. Do we therefore assume that he has unlimited reserves of energy? No. Lack of evidence is not proof of something. If we assumed that he has that much energy, based on the fact that we don’t know how long it takes him to tired, do you know what that’s called? A No Limits fallacy. You seem to have either consciously or unconsciously fallen prey to that line of thinking, and you have to think about these things clearly with context. Has Naruto ever fought a being beyond planet level? No. Has Superman fought planet level fighters in the past? Yes, quite frequently. Lobo, Bizarro, Doomsday, and Black Atom are at least planet or higher.

    • Itachi’s mirror is definitely very good but I agree that it can’t block everything. Here’s the thing though, the multiversal threats are usually scaled to oblivion using their hype but they don’t tend to fight with that level of power most of the time. In fact, you could say that they very rarely reach that power while Naruto fighters are very consistent with the power level.

      I agree with the no limits thing but Superman has consistently been shown to be damaged by attacks far weaker than what Naruto dishes out. Even someone like Black Adam was stunned by the missile in the trailer for the new movie. Naruto’s Rasengan should deal incredible amounts of damage to Superman and he can spam it/move with incredible speed. I see this being what ultimately puts Superman down for the count.

      • Just cause they dont fight with their full strenght most of the time does not mean that they cant. Lobo,bizarro,doomsday and black adam have very much used alot of their power to show off such feats that naruto cant scale too.
        Heres what you always do, you always overscale naruto by how it looks in the anime, you say he is faster then alot of people cause of the animation speed and how he quickly clashes with people, when hell naruto dodging that laser agiants madara was actually faster then what you see with quick clashes, besides superman has had similar quick clashes too.

        In what way does 5 supernova’s to the face weaker then anything in the naruto series superior to that? Name one guy from naruto that could actually survive 5 supernova’s to the face and end up being fine.
        And once agian, Your talking about the movie version agian, We are not talking about that version. Dwayne johnson is out of the picture right now. We are focusing on their strongest counterparts and the original ones, the comic ones.

        Your telling me the power of one rasengan can match the power of one supernova?
        The best the rasengan has doen is carve away at a mountain, but a supernova destroys planets, and several planets at that. Besides superman is a smart fighter, if he see’s naruto spamming countless rasengans he is gonna eventually counter it with a deadly blow.

      • I agree that characters can go in with their full strength but when you see them get beat up enough times then you know that they just aren’t that dude. Naruto always goes in and as a result he tends to fight at a much higher level than any of those other guys. You ever see Naruto have trouble with the kinds of opponents that are beating up those DC heavyweights?

        Animation speed was actually really key to all of this though. It’s how you can really see the characters in action. Animated feats>>>Text feats for that very reason. Someone can be said to be light speed but if that doesn’t mesh with the video showing them moving at that speed then they are going to be in for a bit of trouble.

        All right, we’ll leave Dwayne Johnson out of this for now although that movie is looking intense. For the Supernovas, those are area attacks so it’s not like a direct move hitting you in the face. It’s why I say the Rasengan is more impressive because that is a direct hit so if you get whacked by that then it could be game over. I would spin the question to say, do you think Superman could take 5 Rasengans to the face? It seems incredibly doubtful at this point in time. Naruto’s hits always end up delivering when it counts.

  39. Realistically Naruto would have lost alot of his other fights and would fail if not for the help of others, naruto agiants deidara, deidara’s plan was to tire naruto out and capture him. if it were not for kakashi’s help and his mangekyo sharingan, naruto would be captured and have the 9 tails pulled out of him. battle agiants kakazu, by the time naruto arrived kakazu was already in a fight and soem of his hearts were blown away. even then naruto failed to land the first rasen shuriken and needed help from the others to land the 2nd one. Naruto vs pain. naruto did lose the fight agiants deva path pain and needed help from the other toads. hinata even stepped in and after watching her almost die naruto almost gave in to the 9 tails control, it was only that minato went in to help naruto recover. 4th great ninja war? Naruto needed the 5 great nations, naruto cannot defeat the reanimation enemy’s alone cause he does not know the sealign technique to seal them away. hell even less since madara and obito are wrapped in all this, naruto would not be able to defeat obito since he does not have kamui to exploit his weakness. Even as an adult Naruto needed to be rescued by the 5 kages, sasuke and boruto.
    But superman? Most of his greatest feats were done all by himself.
    Why is he gettign beat up most of the time.
    Well once agian.

    They either use his weakness kryptonite or magic.
    Its night so theres no sun around.
    There are innocent people in the fight that superman wants to protect.
    Your talking about a different kind of superman
    But the greatest key seller is a quote that alot of superman fans know.
    Superman is as strong as he needs to be.
    Superman becomes as strong as he needs to be at the task at hand.
    If superman is fighting a enemy who could destroy the universe, then superman would live up to that strength to beat that enemy.
    But if superman is fighting something weak like the tripods, especially if theres people around and no sun, then his strength would be locked away. and instead have strength thats enough, because if superman were to just destroy all of them at once with a punch that could destroy lets say a star. Then well the whole fucking planets dead.

    Thats why we see him get beat up, because either the guy uses kryptonite, magic or theres no sun. Superman’s strength is finite, but finite to the task at hand.

    If naruto could destroy lets say a moon. then superman would rise up to the very strength naruto is at and even greater, if naruto goes planetary, so does superman, if naruto goes black hole level, so does superman, star level, superman too, universal level, superman does as well.

    Superman is a guy who bounds no limits to his power, it just keeps growing the more dangerous of a foe.
    So when you pit naruto, a guy who tries to brake his limits. vs a guy who has no limits, agian like i said, only one of them has limits to give, and that would be naruto.

    Animation feats do not need to be there in order to summarise a characters feats. hell its stated that jiraiya’s big ball rasengan could carve away a mountain in the official data books.

    A supernova is legit a solar system destroying blast, it destroys all the planets just by its area attack, so if its a direct hit its even worse, and superman took 5.
    Your saying to me a single direct hit of a rasengan can match the power of a supernova?
    Yes superman can tank 5 rasengans to the face. hell if naruto can even land one.

    • Naruto is definitely landing a Rasengan though. Just look at their combat feats, Naruto is going to be all over Superman here and the man of steel will have no way to defend or dodge against the attacks. It’s a completely different weight class and Naruto is the one with the advantage. For the supernova part, it’s still an area attack so Naruto’s is more direct and would have more striking power behind it.

      Superman definitely has limits though. Why do you think he loses all the time? Every character has limits but Naruto’s is a lot better. As for the Jiraiya feat, that’s still not as impressive as seeing the Rasengan he used against pain.

      Now you bring up one of my favorite hype points which is that Superman’s strength fluctuates a lot. He is as weak as he needs to be in order to lose to the villain of the week so that the Justice League can score a victory. Because of that he doesn’t have the consistency or raw power that Naruto always has and that can often be the difference between victory and defeat. The line is a narrow one after all and one that shouldn’t be crossed by most fighters. Superman is strong to be sure but he hasn’t gone up against anybody quite like Naruto. Superman can try to scale up but without a Get Ability or another kind of power copy ability, he would fall short in the end.

      Yeah Naruto loses a lot but he always takes heart and tells the bad guys why they are going to lose. It’s not possible to shake his spirit in the slightest. Why? Because Naruto is that dude. His abilities speak for themselves and put him as a true all star. Dread it, Run from it, but Naruto arrives all the same. No character is safe from his abilities and that includes Superman. Each loss only made Naruto stronger and increased his resolve by that amount. Naruto is built different.

      • Naruto would find it hard to when superman can kepe up with the flash, besides even if he can land one, its not like its gonna do lasting damage. superman could just heal from it with the sun, or hell just tank it all together, characters have survived naruto’s rasengan before, some blocked it, some tanked it, and some straight up nullified it.

        So your saying a direct attack from a rasnegan beats a supernova? are you hearing yourself? a solar system level explosion, being weaker then a measly rasengan, the best we have seen is that it can carve away mountains. But even then thats nowhere near a solar system level explosion.

        Superman does not lose all the time, in fact he has more wins then losses. hell even less losses when you take the non canon stuff out of the debate, cause like i said, cartoon and movies im not counting.

        Why would a small hole in pains body be stronger then a rasengan that can mountain bust? You make 0 sense and you dont know how to power scale.

        Your completly wrong with what i was trying to say
        Superman strength, based on what the writers say, is as strong as he needs to be, he is not as strong when fighting weak villains cause strength like blowing up a planet is not needed for the task. But when theirs multiverse destruction going on, supermans power would meet the task needed to defeat this opponent. its not an ability superman has, its some kind of weird paradox that the writers do with him. He is strong when he needs to be strong. He will become stronger then naruto if he tries to fight him.

        Saying naruto is “that dude” is not a valid argument to claim a win.
        His abilities are completely weak compared to what superman has faced.
        You just assume that superman gets beaten alot and that naruto’s combat feats are better, thats all your evidence, meanwhile me and other guys have shown more proof to our claims much better then you have.

        No matter how strong naruto grows, superman was already stronger.

      • Naruto is that dude though. He has the clutch factor and he would be able to quickly take Superman down at any point. Naruto grows stronger while Superman is stagnant. Need I remind you that Superman has been absolutely dominated by many fighters in the past? I don’t see him being able to do much against this ninja at all. Naruto is just faster, more powerful, and certainly more combat ready. He would use his Rasengan and just blow Superman away.

        Superman can’t escape and while his travel speed is faster than Naruto’s, he doesn’t have the combat speed to deal with it. So Superman’s definitely on the way out here and would just be getting crushed out there. There is no escape….no escape from the powers of Naruto. I could see him going Sage Mode and just turning Superman into a toad or speed blitzing him. Superman will panic when his attacks aren’t working and that’s Naruto’s chance.

  40. Calling Naruto that dude is not a valid reason for his win.
    He is not a clutch guy either, He does not clutch every moment.
    The battle against pain for example, the dude only won because of hinata’s almost sacrifice and minato’s help to seal back Naruto’s seal.

    Supermans power does not remain stagnant. He too continue’s to grow strong, the stronger the foe, The stronger he gets.

    You keep taking supermans losses out of context by a whole lot.
    For one you use the tv show and movie superman feats when their not canon to the actual character.

    Superman keeps having to limit his powers to cause less damage to city’s and save more lives.
    Most of his losses occurred when their was no sunlight, aka super mama main power source.

    And once again Superman is as strong when he needs to be strong.
    The more you say how Naruto is strong, the stronger Superman becomes at the time.

    Since you said his so called travel speed is faster lemme show you many ways he can use his travel speed

    For one Superman can straight up blitz Naruto and sock him right in the face.
    He can also fly circles around Naruto without him noticing.
    See what I mean?
    Or he’ll straight up send this dude flying into space.
    Naruto can’t breathe in space while Superman can.

    And before you say but Naruto fought toneri on the moon. The moon of the Naruto verse had a barrier jutsu surrounding it, allowing the moon to maintain a atmosphere. So Naruto and Toneri were still breathing air.
    So yeah Superman flying Naruto or straight up punching him into space is gonna get Naruto killed.
    Hell Superman could just destroy earth and leave Naruto helpless.
    I know that defeats the purpose of Superman protecting earth but you don’t seem to care.

    How is Naruto gonna escape space itself if he can’t breathe in it?

    • Destroying Earth is a decent play but that’s why the fights take place on a neutral environment that is indestructible. I typically use “Final Destination” as a visual representation. It has all elements so water for characters like Nemo, fire, land, etc. The idea is that it should be a fair battlefield for both fighters so nobody is instantly ringed out or can’t move like Nemo. Additionally, that’s why characters can’t time travel to before the match started to win the fight or blink someone out of existence to dodge the fight.

      Now, it’s still valid for Superman to grab Naruto and try to fly off the planet or throw him out of orbit but that would require combat speed that Superman doesn’t have. Naruto will definitely be able to counter strike him the whole time and Superman is not taking straight hits like that. It’s still valid for Superman to use his travel speed but the instant he gets close to Naruto, that’s when the reaction times kick in and Naruto will be able to blast him away.

      As for Naruto being clutch, remember when he saved Sakura at the last moment when Sasuke attacked or when he rescued Hinata’s sister? I could name dozens of moments like this where Naruto just came in and took care of business. He absolutely is That dude!

      Superman’s had plenty of losses in all mediums which is mainly due to their being so many writers over that stretch of time who all have their own thoughts and ideas about the character. We’re looking at peak performance so no need to worry about the weaker showings but he is less consistent than Naruto

      • when the actual fuck did you bring a battlefield into the debate?
        Final destination?
        The hell is this smash bros ultimate?

        You never even mentioned such bullshit in your debates.

        We are looking at this fight in 2 ways rn
        Your looking at it like its some smash bros ultimate game.
        Im looking at it in a canon perspective. and I’m sure that’s what everyone else thought too.
        We are looking at this in a perspective where they have their abilities. ALL OF THEM, at least ones they can access without outside help.

        This ain’t a game dude.

        Like I said, superman could keep up with the flash in a fight. And hell the physical abilities naruto has shown can be seen at best in street level fights in close range. We see basic ninja’s in naruto put up with fights like this, meanwhile superman over here dealing with foes that move so fast that they almost tear apart an entire universe.

        Besides naruto hasn’t been able to react to everything.

        When I meant clutch moments I meant clutch moments where he managed to pull some bullshit off to win a fight, not save a girl.

        Your ass said don’t worry about the weaker showings when all you have done is show superman’s weaker showings. weaker showings that are not even the same as other superman.

        If your looking at peak performance then what I have been saying for superman feats is true. cause that’s his peak performance, his greatest would be where he matches foes who just seem unbeatable.

      • Yeah man it’s in my blog battle rules:

        I tried to put everything there although I’m sure that I’ve missed stuff. I also list about ways that can bypass the fight and specify on equipment, composite, and stuff like that. It’s all really hype in there but otherwise like you brought up, it would be possible for fighters to win the fight without defeating the opponent which seems iffy.

        But they do have all of their abilities and everything. You just need to defeat the opponent rather than escaping or anything like that. Naruto dodged a point blank light speed attack from Madara and he did it while smirking. Superman has kept up with the Flash but in combat he regularly has trouble with fighters like Lobo, Solomon Grundy, and other heavy-weights who aren’t very fast. Superman’s typically more of a mano a mano guy because in combat he just couldn’t move as quickly.

        Naruto’s done plenty of clutch moments to win as well though. That last combo to take out Sasuke, his big rage moment against Haku where he stabbed through, etc. Naruto is the guy you want to have at your back.

        Ha, well those weaker showings won’t doom Superman but they were a good way to show that Superman isn’t as super fast as he would appear to be. It’s the difference between travel speed and combat speed. Also his durability is good but not invincible or close to it.

        Superman’s high-end stuff is good but not quite as good as Naruto Uzumaki

  41. The rules for these debates are wack and completely nerf a lot of the fighter’s abilities.

    Hell you said in rule 1 all fighters have access to everything
    but in rule 8 and 10 you kinda break that

    Is time traveling really cheating if its part of that person’s abilitys?

    and number 10, there have been people who legit use will power to actually do that, again its apart of their abilities to use weird stupid will. There have been characters who actually will people out of existence. Adding this rule nerfs that ability.

    9 is also kind of wack. It ends up nerfing a lot of characters.

    Though it does explain why the hell you think ger has a limit.

    And if rule number 11 is really true then all of superman previous feats where he gets his ass kicked wont apply anymore cause like I said,
    Man is trying to protect people forcing him to limit his powers, if this dumb shit ring exists then superman can go all out and therefore the feats I previously stated can happen.

    Flash has trouble against lobo, solomon and grundy, not because he was not fast enough, but because he lacked any abilities to actually kill them.
    I mean Lobo is a dude who was banned from the afterlife and also pulled the sun around.

    first off what combo to take out sasuke, in almost every naruto vs sasuke fight it ended with a rasengan and chidori clash.

    I cant say naruto breaking out of haku’s ice jutsu was not really a clutch moment and more of a enraged moment or hell just pure overpowering haku.

    Superman’s weaker showings have not lead to his defeat, and hell he has more victory’s over his losses.

    Hell after all naruto in a lot of his fights never showed any FTL moves most of the time, while superman has shown them multiple times.

    • Yeah the rules get a pretty intense but I think they make sense. Otherwise some fights would be pretty much bypassed. The idea is that you want everyone at their absolute strongest without some hax just negating the fight from happening. Number 10 is crucial because otherwise people are just blinking their opponents out of existence which isn’t a real fight. Just use willpower to negate that.

      Now as for Superman going all out, I agree that he’s super strong but he’s still not going to do much here. Look up Superman’s fastest fight and then compare it to Naruto vs Isshiki. The difference in speed is aboslutely massive.

      As for Naruto’s combo on Sasuke, I was talking about the one where he hit him into the air a few times and just kept on going. That is absolutely the kind of abilities you want to see out of Naruto and show why he is one of the strongest fighters out there. Taking out Haku was just icing on the cake. It should count as a clutch moment because things could have easily gone sideways but Naruto just didn’t let up.

      • Time traveler users dont just go back in time to just retreat from the fight from happening, but rather win the fight.
        Like if a guy got stabbed and then used the time travel move to travel back in time to before he got stabbed, then he no longer got stabbed, and can predict the next move.

        Im sorry bro, there are people out there who can just blink people out of existence.
        Sure it ain’t a real fight but banning the user from it completely nerfs them. It is still apart of their ability’s, even if its really broken.

        The difference in speed is absolutely massive your correct, because superman flying faster then light and has speedblitzs speedsters before is way faster then the average street level fight you get in naruto. Hell in that naruto vs isshiki fight, they were not even moving faster then sound. So your whole combat speed thing is pointless when they cant even move faster then sound.

        Agiants superman, it would be a complete fail, either superman stands there unharmed or is pushed back by a bit.

        The only reason naruto managed to escape haku’s ice prison was because of the kurama’s chakra, and at the time he had no control over it. He did not know what he was doing, it was just blind rage.

      • I mean time travel is cool to use to try to dodge hits and replay actions. They can definitely do that but 90% of the time all that will do is stall for a bit of time. It’s not something that you can really pull off in order to get the grand win. No way…no how!

        Blinking out of existence isn’t going to work if you have willpower though so that’s why I threw it in there. I think it’s a pretty reasonable rule.

        As for the speed, Naruto looks better in the combat speed. Naruto is FTL because he was able to react to Haku moving through the glass. The Naruto characters have been FTL for a long time now and that’s where Superman/Darkseid would go down. They would not be able to keep up for very long before being overwhelmed.

  42. Time travel to win fights has worked a lot.
    Now every time traveling user can effect time differently, some can travel back in time and their actions in the past will effect the future, some others who can travel back in time cant effect the future no matter what they do in the past.

    But people who can effect the future by effecting the past are deadly, It does not stall for time, in fact it can be a Huge game changer, effecting the entire future.

    Willpower for the last time does not always grant you the magic ability to resist attacks like that.
    Even though you have yet to prove isshiki being capable of this.
    If you don’t have evidence of this you can put that in as a factor.
    Besides not all erasing abilities work the same, some have weaknesses while others are straight forward.

    Haku was fast but sadly their speed feats don’t actually stack up to when naruto dodged madara’s light fang.
    Even then superman and darkseids speed feats were far faster.
    These 2 could both keep up with the flash who can react down to attoseconds
    An attosecond is one quintillionth of a second.
    Like here look

    An attosecond, beats legit every speed feat in all of naruto.

    Saying naruto being faster would be completely stupid and would prove your bias.

    • Big talk from the Flash but keep in mind that he gets surprised on the regular by human level opponents and gets tagged by everyone. It’s why you can’t scale the characters as directly there. I dare say that he was bluffing to try and get Superman nervous but it didn’t work. They are fast in travel speed but aren’t fighting at Naruto levels. Again, Naruto was taking on Haku and he dodged attacks from Madara. I don’t see any comic book character being able to keep up with him at that point.

      Time control is still a good ability so I don’t disagree! The main problem is that it will rarely be enough to defeat an opponent that you wouldn’t have defeated otherwise. It’s why I’m rarely all that impressed by it but it can help.

      As for willpower, it’s the ultimate end all for hax abilities. It’s why physical techniques are the best because there is no way around them. You either win or you lose but that’s it.

      • My guy when the hell was the flash actually taken out by a human level opponent?
        you referring to when catwoman did that? for one poison ivy was controlling the flash and had no idea how to use his powers to the fullest.
        2nd of all don’t underestimate the human level superheroes in comic books.
        like hell look at batman.

        why would superman be nervous? he can do something completely similar, besides they were never fighting at the time.

        Listen, one good change would be enough to alter an entire fight by going back in time, after all that’s what the flash has done several times before.

        willpower still cannot counter all erasing abilities.
        Reasons being that you don’t have enough will power in the first place
        the erasing ability is also powered by the users will.

      • The Flash loses constantly to humans. He’s been beaten by Deathstroke in the comics and if you watch the Flash TV show he loses in just about every episode. Flash is good but he’s not always fighting at 100% energy and that’s his problem. He doesn’t keep his guard up and tends to get absolutely demolished by just about everyone. He’s completely out of his depth against anime fighters.

        As for Superman, he still can get nervous when he figures that it’s all over for him. It’s why you need willpower since that’s the only way to counter reality warping and other hax type abilities

  43. Dude deathstroke in the comics is fucking superhuman and even rivals fucking batman in tactian.
    Plus in the comics most of the time the flash won and sometimes deathstroke did, though he did have battles where he needed prep time to analyze his foe and prepare.
    And no dude the flash Tv show is not canon.
    You did mention that he does not keep his guard up, But when he DOES, again bro, attoseconds, far faster then any naruto character came across.
    Any evidence to prove that sasuke can move faster then attoseconds?

    Its kinda sad how you have to resort to SUPERMAN of all people to be scared to make a case on why naruto or isshiki would win.

    You say willpower can counter reality warping hax and abilities, wheres the proof of this feat in the first place? and even then wheres the proof that naruto or isshiki would be capable or hell know about this in the first place?

    • Deathstroke is really strong but he’s still just some dude. Flash should have been able to stop him but he got folded like an omelet. That’s what is going to happen with Isshiki and Darkseid. Isshiki will tell him to scramble like an egg or get folded like an omelet, his choice! Even Darkseid will want to escape there.

      Now Sasuke isn’t faster than attoseconds but he doesn’t have to be because you’re comparing travel speed to combat speed. Flash isn’t ready to effectively fight at that speed and that’s what will really hurt him in this round. He’s about to very quickly be overwhelmed in this battle.

      Hey, fear isn’t something to be ashamed about. So Superman feels fear sometimes, it’s not a big deal. Happens to everyone, even Naruto although that guy conquered it and made it his own.

      • Deathstroke aint just some dude, hell one time he even gained flashe powers for himself one time, even the humans of dc superheroes or villains should not be underestimated.

        Darkseid would not run, instead he would ask isshiki to neal, if isshiki refuses, well

        It wont end well for him

        Ik I said I’m using comic book feats only but that right there is a good example of what would happen to isshiki, only 10x more brutal.

        As for attoseconds, Did you not read the fucking whole link, he said he could react down to attoseconds, not travel faster then them. READ IT FIRST.

        He could literally see light itself being frozen.

        Sasuke would be frozen in his perspective.

        Superman has dealt fear, but against the flash, never in his life. They mostly race, fight and fight off villains.

      • Yeah but Deathstroke still isn’t fast like that so it’s a rough look. As for Darkseid, he would try the Omega Beams but just like how Batman and Lex have dodged it in the past, Isshiki would sidestep the hit and start pounding away at Darkseid. He would be going for the casual speedblitz the whole time and never looking back. It’s why everyone is terrified to even attempt to try and fight Isshiki. He’s on a different level.

        Yeah he can react to things moving super quick and all but can he do anything about it? Because he gets hit by attacks that are way slower all the time. I’m thinking he may just be saying that for intimidation reasons but it’s all a bit of a bluff. It seems like the feat just wouldn’t hold up.

  44. Deathstroke has already reacted to similar speedsters like the flash before, again, even humans in dc can be absurdly dangerous and powerful.

    Agian the omega beams would end up following isshiki, and they wont stop until they land. isshiki may have crazy stamina but its limited just like every other naruto character. Plus batman and lex had preptime before, mostly to weaken darkseid with a gun specifically designed to hurt and weaken him.
    Plus if batman and lex can keep up with superman, then it makes sense why they could too.

    You say how terrifying isshiki is, but yet when he raided the village, not a single shinobi backed down from the fight. sure they got legit destroyed but your hype of isshiki being scary is kinda a letdown, especially if its darkseid who is confronting him.

    See you THINK that, but that does not necessarily mean that’s what he is doing, where I the evidence of this so called claim you make, just cause he was hit by some random thing that was slightly slower in the past does not effect his full performance.
    Even then he has shown numerous times where his attosecond thought feat shows, even then, the writers would not go out of their way to make a page on how fast an attosecond is if its not true.

    • Isshiki is scary though so Darkseid may want to back it up here. He’s not ready to take someone down like this. Isshiki would grab Darkseid in a chokehold and then let the omega beams do the rest. Batman and Lex can keep up but they’re humans so imagine their speed multiplied by millions and then you have Isshiki. It’s really all over at that point. Isshiki is just built different.

      Deathstroke hitting someone like the Flash is still pretty rough though. The attosecond thing doesn’t hold up. Look I can tell you that I can eat attoseconds worth of bagels but if I always take 5 minutes then who are you going to believe? Your ears or your eyes? Flash likes to brag a lot and same with Superman so they probably just exaggerated. Not a lie per say but they were caught up in their own hype

      • isshiki being scray? soon enough even boruto and kawaki managed to stand up to him eventually, and to say Darkseid would be scared would be complete bullshit.
        A chokehold would not work, for one isshiki is only 5’5 while darksied is 7’6. if anyone is gonna be stuck in chokehold, its isshiki.

        As for batman and lex, both of them use there tech to weaken or have prepared weaknesses for their foes. Both of them had it for darksied. Which is why they could doge these lasers, thanks to a special gun.

        Hell even some people chalked up these feats to be purely based on plot armour.
        Which is kinda a bullshit claim but, its not an option to rule out.

        So how did deathstroke managed to react to the flash, well just like batman and lex Luthor, he too is a battle strategist. He was able to predict the flashes movements.
        another reason which I also find bullshit is that people chalked It up to comic book writing taking deathstrokes side.

        Either way deathstroke, batman and lex luthor all may be human, but underestimating them is a common mistake to those who have never seen the comics before.

        Even then, do you have actual proof of the flash lying about this feat? caus there is a bit of evidence that points to flashes attosecond feat

        Like where he and reverse flash had an entire fight in a picosecond

        Hell a picosecond alone also ends up beating the entire naruto cast in speed,
        and hell even in strength, because the flash also ended up punching reverse flash with a punch equivalent to a dwarf star.

        If the links don’t work then i can get new ones.

      • Hey choke holds don’t care about reputations or size difference. They just come into play as needed and cause overwhelming devastation everywhere. For Batman I was talking about the cartoon where he outran the red lasers but the comic gun scene is pretty intense too. If these guys can deal with Darkseid like that, imagine what someone a million times faster like Isshik can do. That would be game over for Darkseid straight out of the gate. It would be too late for him, he would have to scale it back or be defeated. There would be no other way around that.

        Not sure I like how Flash just succumbs to destiny in that panel since you can absolutely change the future and that was my issue with Flashpoint but I see what you’re saying. The reason I’d say the feats there are a bit hyperbole is how Reverse Flash didn’t explode when Flash punched him. If he was really punching with the power of a white dwarf planet then there would have been no way to survive that. I think Flash is buying into his own hype a little too much which is what is costing him here

  45. Dude if your trying to chokehold somebody who is taller bigger and weigh’s more then you, your gonna fail, and even worse, die because of that.

    Second of all 2 problems

    1, why the fuck are you using the cartoons, The cartoons are not as strong as their comic book counter parts, aka their original version.
    2 batman used one of Darkseid’s man as a means of escape or as a quick shield. Even then, Batman only ended up dodging one, and even then Darkseid at the time was only toying with the justice league.

    Flash legit explains that the faster something goes the harder it hits, Why would it cause an explosion? He hits like a dwarf star, but not literally explode like one.

    Since your stupid and dumb think of that shit like a fucking rasengan. something compact into one hit. Only instead of bending chakra, the flash legit just moves so fast that the damage is equivalent to that of a dwarf star.

    Even if it was not a dwarf star, its definitely over at least a planetary scale, something that isshiki, does not stand shit of a chance against.
    Especially since these 2 fought the entire fight in a pico second

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